Simon Waller (00:01)
Hello and welcome to episode 16 of the Future with Friends. I’ve been joined today by a wonderful, dear and incredibly vivacious friend of mine, Amy Scott. We’ve just been cackling to ourselves in the little bit of green room space we had before the episode started, ⁓ which brings back so many wonderful memories of meeting Amy.

do you remember Amy when we met? Do you have any recollection of those days? It was a while ago now.

Amy Scott (00:33)
Yeah, I do. I’m trying to decide whether I saw you across the room in a mutual… Oh no, that sounded creepy. I… So you’re probably like, what sort of friendship is this? Whether it was like, know, full… Actually, I think it was when we went… Because we had a mutual coach, right? Like, we were part of this program. And… it… Oh…

Simon Waller (00:46)
You

Yes, was Laurel. Well, I

got introduced to Laurel by Laurel McClay.

Amy Scott (01:01)
⁓ beautiful Laurel, ⁓

Simon Waller (01:03)
I know. Yes. She was

my coach at Thought Leaders. And I don’t know if she your coach as well, or did she know? I think she knew you beforehand because obviously in New Zealand, there’s only seven people in New Zealand and you all know each other.

Amy Scott (01:06)
Bye.

Yeah, well I was so

And we’re all related, which is why we’re all genius. So good. Yeah, no, she was my coach for a bit too, because I really wanted to get into thought leaders because I desperately wanted Jason to, I didn’t even know who Matt Church was or Peter Cook, I didn’t know them. I just wanted to be mentored by Jason Fox, beautiful Dr. Jason Fox.

Simon Waller (01:17)
Yeah.

Amy Scott (01:41)
And so I was so keen, I did a bit of pre-work before I got in with Laurel.

Simon Waller (01:48)
And we both end up being mentored by Jason and then going hiking with Jason through the mountains in New Zealand, where embarrassingly you had to carry half my pack off the mountain because I went hiking with a broken back and kind of neglected to tell people until three days in.

Amy Scott (01:50)
We did it. We did it.

on our

I know.

Like, were you deliberately wanting to make it harder for yourself? Like, that wasn’t just a Sunday walk, like a cruisy, you know, that was, we were right up in the snow and climbing up. Oh my, I just remember.

Simon Waller (02:23)
Look, it’s combination

of factors. I mean, I think one of them was that, ⁓ I probably underestimated the extent of the injury. ⁓ I overestimated my own capability. I underestimated how hard the hike was going to be.

Amy Scott (02:39)
Yeah,

I think Beautiful Pat deliberately didn’t tell us. I don’t know why we weren’t aware when you think about, like, he is a mountaineer. What were we thinking?

Simon Waller (02:44)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

So to give a little context of the people listening, was a group of us that met at a place called Thought Leaders, ⁓ who were all being mentored by a wonderful person, Dr. Jason Fox, who’s been on the podcast previously. And in that group was another guy, Pat Hollingworth, who coincidentally I went to high school with, in the same year at high school together. And whereas some of us went off and you went traveling through Europe, his idea of a good time

Amy Scott (02:52)
Peace.

Simon Waller (03:18)
was to go hiking, ⁓ like and climb mountains. And so I think when I was kind of partying in London, he was on the top of Mount Everest at like the age of like 22 or 23. And so he decided he would take us for a hike in New Zealand, which sounded delightful. And it was delightful. Like there was parts of it you had to climb with your hands and you’re like, and that was a bit where it all went pear shaped.

Amy Scott (03:32)
Bye.

Like.

Simon Waller (03:48)
because I stopped being able to use one of my legs correctly. And I had to literally physically lift my leg up into like a foothold and then push off it until we got above the snow line. And then on the way down, things got so bad that yes, Amy and I was actually, was Amy and Kim. So Jason’s partner, Kim, who’s also quite diminutive and you too had to carry myself off the mountain. Yeah. And yet you still came on my podcast, which is kind of obviously.

Amy Scott (04:14)
Look, you know.

Simon Waller (04:18)
⁓ either sympathy or

Amy Scott (04:18)
Well, I just…

Well I just think, wasn’t that the classic example of women, you know, like actually just helping get shit done, you know, like…

Simon Waller (04:29)
Yeah, though I do remember, I do

remember before we, do you remember when were in the little, at Macau-Rora in the little cabins before we left? And Pat insisted on everyone unpacking all their bags to see what they had in them, so we didn’t want to carry any extra weight.

Amy Scott (04:37)
Thanks

You

Simon Waller (04:46)
What was in your bag Amy?

Amy Scott (04:48)
⁓ Well I had three different night creams. Can I just say, even before we got up the mountain, that was an extremely powerful exercise for me. Because what it demonstrated was how much shit I was literally carrying around. Not just in my pack and we going to be away, was it four nights? Five nights? ⁓

Simon Waller (05:10)
Yeah.

Amy Scott (05:12)
But like emotionally, the package I was carrying, like we hadn’t even got the mountain yet. I’m like, and can I embarrassingly, something I learnt on that trip, which maybe if I’d believed my first husband might not have been such a revelation to me, but apparently I snore.

And so the whole idea like I’m a wee bit of a loud person anyway and quite excitable but the fact that I’m loud at night Right as well and yeah, I didn’t know that so there you go ⁓

Simon Waller (05:48)
Well, this is perfect because, ⁓ yes,

I mean, the fact that you’ve said that you’re a loud person makes it easier.

Amy Scott (05:56)
Well everyone was looking for the guy who was keeping all the huts awake every night and then finally when people realised it was me people were a bit salty in the mornings like not you guys you were lovely and mostly and kind about it but everyone else all the other trampers and the huts were a bit like growly because they didn’t get any sleep but I had wonderful sleep

Simon Waller (06:17)
But I also can’t imagine that. I think if you’re going to choose to go hiking and sleep in a hut without walls with 20 other people, you can’t be entirely surprised that there is a snorer amongst you. I mean, it might have been surprising that it was you.

Amy Scott (06:22)
you

Well I think apparently the combination of foghorn, train, rhinoceros, and then I’m not a big person so I think that was the surprise. But yeah, never underestimate the little one.

Simon Waller (06:48)
Yeah. Yeah. You definitely do sound much bigger than you are. mean, that’s definitely true. Um, which also makes your choice of topic for today. Also super interesting. Uh, so obviously we spoke, uh, a couple of weeks ago and, uh, I invited you on and I said, Hey, Amy, you can talk about the future of absolutely anything you want. And you have chosen the future of silence.

Amy Scott (06:52)
⁓ lord.

Bye-bye.

We did.

irony right ⁓

Simon Waller (07:20)
I know the irony.

Is this, I was like, is this a space that you’ve been exploring for a while? Or is this a new interest for you?

Amy Scott (07:28)
Well, can I just say, certainly not consciously, that’s for sure. yeah, interesting.

Simon Waller (07:35)
tell us why. What was that? You know, when I said that to you and I said like, this is a space that you could explore. Why choose this? What was going on for you or has been going on or what have been your thought processes around this that made you want to explore this in more depth?

Amy Scott (07:38)
Yeah.

Yeah

Yeah, so I think what it is, is I think I’ve been feeling so everything’s loud and there’s stimulation and we’re on and this drive for it be connected, whether it’s virtually in person and when you said what could I talk about, my mind flipped back to a 10 day Vipassana retreat I did, which was, I don’t know, 10 years ago or so and I loved it. I mean, admittedly, I slept through most of it.

But the point was, as I got up at 4am, I just realised probably a lot of those participants heard me snoring. be honest, I did have the lovely helpers come and wake me up because I was snoring during the day. But getting up at 4am and then sitting and meditating for how many hours was pretty a big deal. I actually loved it.

Simon Waller (08:29)
And they’re like, damn it, this was meant to be a silent retreat.

Amy Scott (08:49)
what happened is stuff surfaced in my mind that I hadn’t even realised I’d held onto or thought about. And that was fascinating. And then I remember after it finished, when I went to ⁓ the airport, everything was so loud and so big and I sensed that even my life in 10 years is more loud and more busy and I’m trying to fit everything in. ⁓

Even in 10 years I think I’m trying to do that more and I don’t know that I was conscious of that until you said ⁓ and then yeah.

Simon Waller (09:25)
Yeah, this is interesting because in some way, I don’t mean this in bad way, you have built your, your practice and your business on being loud. And I don’t, yeah, like, yeah, like you, you stand in front of a room and you are intentionally loud and vivacious and, and big. And, part of that is about giving other people the confidence for them to be big and to be open and to talk and connect. Right. So.

Amy Scott (09:32)
Absolutely, yeah, and encouraging people to talk and connect.

this.

Yes.

Absolutely.

Simon Waller (09:54)
So it’s very interesting that I can understand that as you’ve grown into that role and got better at it, you’re actually in some ways, yeah, are you somehow squeezing that space for silence and…

Amy Scott (10:01)
Yes.

I think so.

Or even the whole thing around by being like chasing connection, external perhaps, I’ve lost connection internally. And then that’s brought up a bit of, oh, what does that mean for me?

Simon Waller (10:25)
Mmm.

Yeah. And I think also the challenge, I don’t want to go into the conversation too much because we have the scenario to hear, and I think a lot of the stuff is kind of covered off in there. But it did bring up for me as well of this need for how do we maintain attention and an attention economy when everyone’s shouting louder and louder. And, you know, when we talk about this from a systemic perspective, it’s like, do we get to a point where there is just

Amy Scott (10:32)
⁓ yeah.

in.

Simon Waller (10:58)
a cacophony of noise, or is there somehow going to be a ⁓ competing force that brings this back into a state of equilibrium? And I think that that’s a little bit of what you explore in this, which was super exciting.

Amy Scott (11:01)
and

Well it’s interesting because when we first chatted the first thing that comes to my mind was well this you know 10-day retreat is this going to become more normalised not just for the people seeking spirituality is this going to be necessary for our health actually and is this going to be necessary for public health like seeking out the silence and so rather than just a weekend or 10 days could these retreats become

a month or three months and quite normalised. I’m not sure. Yeah.

Simon Waller (11:44)
Okay, so that was a starting point of our conversation. What I’m going to do now, Amy, is I’m going to throw to you, you’re going

to have free reign of the microphone. You’re going to read your scenario from the beginning through the gosh, I didn’t notice your water bottle matches your wall. How cool is that?

Amy Scott (12:00)
Look, I tell you.

Simon Waller (12:01)
Did you, sorry, does the wall match the water bottle or the other way around? you get, which one did you get first? And then you had to find a water bottle to match it.

Amy Scott (12:05)
I got the wall first.

Yeah and it had to be Frank Green because I was being a bit of a wanker and I wanted a nice… I like to swear, sorry.

Simon Waller (12:19)
I did tell you we don’t edit anything out, so… Yeah.

Amy Scott (12:21)
Yeah, well

actually yeah, I like nice things. So actually I’m not gonna apologize for that. I like nice things and I’ll probably keep it.

Simon Waller (12:24)
Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it probably

would have been more appropriate to get maybe a Bernard orange rather than Frank green, but.

Amy Scott (12:35)
yeah, good point. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but you know, anyway. Anyway, I love you. You’re so good. So, are you ready? Is everybody ready? Okay, so I’m reading my scenario.

Simon Waller (12:41)
All right. Are you ready? The microphone’s all yours. Let’s hear about, wait, one last thing. Sorry, I forgot one thing. When is this

set? What year are we in with this?

Amy Scott (12:52)
Oh, 2045, so in 20 years, 20 years time.

Simon Waller (12:54)
2045,

20 years time. Okay, cool. All right, that’s it. No more questions. Over to you, Amy. Tell us about the future of silence.

Amy Scott (12:58)
Okay, ready?

Silence and noise. The future we’re choosing. So Layla wakes to the soft hum of Mira, the sound so familiar it almost blends with her breath. Another morning.

Another day of perfectly drafted responses waiting before she has even opened her eyes. Mira has already summarised the chatter, pre-empted the tricky questions and crafted flawless replies. Overnight, it’s filtered her social layers too, deciding which holographic conversations are worth her time and which to mute entirely. It is efficient, seamless and safe. This afternoon, she has a human-only meeting with some

who refuses to use proxies. So no Mira in the room. No silent stream feeding her lions. The client has already asked for a human-only conversation after a proxy mix-up last month. The thought prickles behind her ribs. No buffer. No polish. Just her.

Across the city, Mateo steps out into the morning rush. His walking commute is an obstacle course of stimulation. Holographic ads flare and dissolve in his path. Delivery drones weave overhead. Around him, social layers hum in the air, glowing status bubbles, half-transparent avatars and spatial conversations stitched into the streetscape. Different groups inhabit

Different groups inhabit overlapping realities. Some are laughing at a protest, others see a food festival, and a few walk through blank silence by choice. Street musicians clash with an AI DJ, the rhythm’s briefly joyful before tipping into a low buzz under his skin. Outside, a pay-per-minute quiet pod. A queue curls down the street.

calm by subscription. Another day fighting for silence in a city that worships noise. As he walks, he thinks about how connection in 2045 is louder and more intentional than ever, but disconnection flows quietly beside it. Platforms sell attention, wellness markets sell relief. The ledger balances either way.

By now the streams have not slowed. People have simply learned to breathe underwater. Some glide with ease and others are still drowning. A teenager slips off her overlays to read a real book as she walks. An elder dictates notes into an old but faithful proxy. Two futures side by side.

Mateo rehearses his opening line under his breath. Here’s to the silence that steadies us and the noise that reminds us we belong. He wants the room to feel it, not just hear it. He reaches the council chamber, sweat cooling on his neck. Today, he will argue for mandatory silence protocols and public decision making. Structured pauses.

Moments where everyone stops, breathes and listens. Some call it visionary, others call it elitist. It is a pilot, 90 seconds only, with opt-out cards on every desk and captions for those who process differently. Outside, the live stream is already buzzing. Without shared pauses, trust thins. Meetings get louder, decisions get worse.

In Layla’s office, a soft light pulses above the meeting table, 30 seconds of quiet before every meeting. Some colleagues close their eyes and settle, others fidget, uncomfortable. Layla hovers somewhere in between. She remembers when the office buzzed constantly. This new ritual feels strange, but part of her craves it.

Not everyone embraces these shifts. People’s realities are shaped by habit, culture, inequities, and personal psychology. Older generations bring different rhythms and values. In some cultures, silence holds deep spiritual weight. In others, noise is how belonging is felt. Some lean so heavily on proxies that their conversations are efficient but brittle.

Others retreat into algorithmic bubbles. And in rural and less connected regions, different patterns of connection and quiet continue altogether. Leila stands outside the meeting room. A news feed plays silently on the wall.

showing snippets of Mateo’s council debate. She glances at the caption, silence protocol vote. Mira’s interface blinks softly on her wrist, waiting to be activated. She hesitates.

then switches it off. She hears Mateo’s line in her head, let the quiet gather you. The door slides open. The air inside is different without the digital hum. She takes a slow breath, turning inward before the conversation begins. In the hush, she reconnects with her own thoughts, not the filtered feed from Myra.

Across town, Mateo steps up to the microphone. The room stills as the silence protocol begins. For a heartbeat, the city’s fades. For many, this is everyday life in 2045, mediated or raw.

Silent or overstimulated, local or virtual. In a world that demands constant interaction, connecting inward has become just as vital as connecting outward. What happens when silence becomes something only a few can afford? Layla lifts her head, voice steady. No buffer, no proxy, just her.

The sound feels strange and thrilling all at once. Outside a drone passes and inside the room holds.

⁓

And that’s it. How about that for a scenario? Amazing. There’s so much.

Simon Waller (19:58)
It’s fantastic. That’s what it

is. Yeah. I, ⁓ I always, ⁓ I just always feel, ⁓ I know not surprised is a bit the wrong word. Like, but when you give this task to people to go away and explore the future and come up with a scenario that captures the essence of an idea, I never know exactly what I’m going to get back.

Amy Scott (20:05)
What did you notice? ⁓

Mm.

Simon Waller (20:28)
And I feel like ⁓ receiving this is almost like a bit of a gift for me, ⁓ where I can sense or have a sense of the effort and the time and the energy that went into crafting this ⁓ and how it somehow captures both an idea, but also captures a little bit of who you are, Amy.

Amy Scott (20:54)
Well, I thank you so carefully. Provided me with a thread.

that led into my soul actually like it’s a little thread that you help me provide a safe space to create this thread and then and then I was invited to pull it and I was so surprised at what

when this took me. I was so captivated once I started exploring this, right? And the trends are that the silent retreats and things are on the rise and there is a need from a health perspective. putting that aside though, like just actually the fact you do a scenario and you’re in it, I think that’s what made it rich. you didn’t… yeah.

Here I am, a communication, sorry, a communication expert and I’ve got no words.

Simon Waller (21:49)
So this is one the things that I picked up on this when I read it and was kind of thinking about the conversation that we were about to have is that neither of us are great at silence.

Amy Scott (21:56)
Mmm.

Mm.

Simon Waller (22:02)
Again, I’m pretty good with words and I tend to use them a lot and feel silences with them.

Amy Scott (22:06)
Mm.

Especially when I’m nervous, that’s what I do. I tend to over-perform, to put other people at ease, or discomfort of maybe them discovering my feelings, perhaps.

Simon Waller (22:13)
And yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and we maybe also think it’s about their discomfort when it potentially is ours as well.

Amy Scott (22:30)
100%.

Simon Waller (22:32)
And I did wonder, like, so I want to call it now just because I get a sense that on one hand, I really want to embrace this and try and find opportunities for more pause and silence in our conversation. And I also know we may do a really poor job of that.

Amy Scott (22:35)
Go for it. Yeah.

you

Probably true.

Simon Waller (22:58)
It reminds me, of our,

another person who was in pillar leaders at the same time was Oscar Trimboli. And Oscar wrote a book about, you know, deep listening or how to listen. And there’s certainly parts of this that came up about how we view pauses. And you touch on that a little bit in terms of how silence means different things in different cultures, but also a pause can be.

Amy Scott (23:05)
yeah, yes!

Hmm.

Mm.

Simon Waller (23:28)
my deep consideration of your point. It could be an invitation for you to say something as well, as opposed to feeling that something that must be filled immediately to avoid a sense of discomfort or something.

Amy Scott (23:30)
Mm.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Simon Waller (23:46)
So let’s have a crack, even though.

Amy Scott (23:51)
I love that neither of know where this is going to go. Slightly excited, slightly terrified too.

Simon Waller (23:53)
Yeah.

Can start by

the experience of writing this? So I’m conscious that, you know, when I ask you to do this, you don’t have a background in futures thinking or strategic foresight. And I gave you a little bit of some prompts, like a document that I shared to kind of get you started. But I’m very curious as to what that process was like for you.

Amy Scott (24:19)
Thanks. ⁓

Simon Waller (24:25)
Were there a couple, I you mentioned before about your own experience of going on a silent retreat. Outside of that though, were there signals and things that you picked up that really intrigued you and influenced this? was that? Talk us through just broadly about what the process was like for you to create this.

Amy Scott (24:30)
⁓

Yeah, okay. So I had no idea what I was doing. so when I looked at the example scenario and then went through the prompts, it was a beautiful, messy…

process for me because I just couldn’t stick to the prompts because what happened is things can’t come up and then I’d be like, oh, let’s go deeper in that. Oh, let’s go deeper over here. Oh my God, what does that mean down here? And so then I’d be like, oh no, I’ve got to come back to get to bring the scenario together. And so the lovely thing about that, I guess, is it just uncovered some just deeper thinking for myself and reflection. And I really enjoyed it.

And I’m really grateful because there’s a part of me that’s been avoiding that. I’m not sure why and maybe I don’t need to know why. But this was fun. This was got me really questioning stuff I’m doing now. Like where am I building in silence? Or, ⁓ there’s just so much Simon. Amazing, right? ⁓

Simon Waller (25:57)
Yeah.

And one of the things you’ll find is that almost now that you’ve tuned your antennas towards this concept that even going forward beyond the exercise of the writing the scenario or preparing for the podcast is that you will be more attuned to signals and ideas related to this core concept that you’re interested in.

Amy Scott (26:03)
Mmm. Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, well the thing that came up, and I can’t believe I’d never heard of her before, but was a Sherry Turkle had done a TED Talk back in like 2012, so this is 13 years ago, she had this quote and it blew my mind and it was like, we expect more from technology and less from each other. That was 13 years ago. And so what that’s kind of got me thinking about all…

Simon Waller (26:45)
Mmm.

Amy Scott (26:50)
have I personally, have I expected more from technology and less from myself? Like I wonder if I’ve unconsciously outsourced a few things that because I was busy. ⁓

Simon Waller (27:06)
Hmm. And I do on

one hand, that could be an oversimplification in the sense that you may expect less of yourself in some areas of your life. But the question would be is that if, you know, by outsourcing some of our work or our responsibilities to technology, what did we do with the time that we gained? And I think that’s probably the slightly more depressing part of it is we kind of like, did I do something meaningful with that?

Amy Scott (27:13)
Peace.

Yes, yes.

Yeah. Yes!

Simon Waller (27:36)
Was I spending that time? Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Scott (27:41)
right? And it’s, and there’s a real shame associated with it. And there’s a real ⁓ addiction and yet, but yet I’m doing something. I’m not really like it. I think there’s a tension around that. need to dive into a bit more myself personally, like, God.

Simon Waller (27:52)
Yeah.

Yeah. And it’s one of the ideas that I,

what I see in this scenario is you, you captured really beautifully this increasing overwhelm of information and communication, which I’ll jump into in a sec, but before we do so, the last part of this process that I shared with you was, cause you gave me a draft of this a couple of days ago. Let’s be honest. was yesterday. yeah.

Amy Scott (28:21)
⁓ Well, you

know, and can we just ignore it like…

I’ve not done something like this before and I love you so much. You might not feel it all the time because you hear from me every seven years. But you know, that’s friendship in my mind. In my mind it’s quality. Simon, not quantity. ⁓ Anyway, and so there was an element of me not wanting to let you down. And so what this stuff, what this process brought up for me, which is very telling really about for me what’s going on is like this, my god, is this going to be good enough? I don’t want to let Simon down. And that was fascinating. I was like,

Wow! I made it mean so much even into our friendship. No? And I’m like, ⁓

Simon Waller (29:03)
Yeah. You know, the thing you said to

me this morning when we first jumped on, cause I was a little bit late in terms of sending through the link for Riverside to do the recording and like the self-talk for you was, Oh gosh, well maybe I just haven’t done a good enough job, but I want to let Simon know that I’m just really grateful anyway, because the exercise has been really validating. And I was like, Oh, no, this is amazing. But that aside, the

Amy Scott (29:25)
Well not

even my friend, not even validating. Like the exercise has been incredibly powerful. Like I’m now going, so what other exercises, like I could really implement just this exercise into my world to consider different, well obviously future is your space, but in terms of well what does all this mean? And what are we doing now that’s gonna add or detract from said future potential?

Simon Waller (29:54)
Mmm

Amy Scott (29:54)
Thank you.

Simon Waller (29:57)
one question though, because I did say when I

got the draft of this, I look, it’s a little bit long. And, that, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is, it’s often the case because it’s, it’s really hard to, to filter ourselves when we think all of this is important. And, and the feedback I kind of, and this is pretty consistent with guests on the show when I get their drafts, it’s like, it needs to be a little bit shorter for two reasons. One is we only, we only have

Amy Scott (30:01)
Yes. Yeah.

yeah, good point.

Simon Waller (30:24)
in an hour and a bit or so to explore this with. if there was, if it was three pages long, there’s going be so much content in there, we’re not going to do it justice. The second challenge is though, is that I want you to know and want you to work out what really matters to you in this space around kind of noise and silence. What are the core concepts that you will definitely not take out, but also what is removable? Can you share like in that, like when you look at this scenario that you have finished.

Amy Scott (30:31)
Yeah.

Mm.

Mmm.

Simon Waller (30:53)
What are the core things that are so important to you in this?

Amy Scott (30:58)
I think Layla using Mira her proxy and how being required by a client to go into a meeting without a proxy and how the angst she had around being just her.

Simon Waller (31:16)
Hmm. So we’ve become

almost like so reliant. We have this almost as a crutch for us. And why did that resonate with you so much? Is that something that you see? You know, at this point, I kind of get a sense that mirror might be some type of brain computer interface because you make the long line here that, that where we are. ⁓ there’s no, there’s a silent stream feeding her lines.

Amy Scott (31:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that’s what I was thinking, yeah.

Simon Waller (31:44)
So this is something that is silent. So it’s basically a direct interface. Obviously there is some emerging technology like that starting to come out where we can actually have these kind of direct brain computer interfaces, but it’s not commonplace at the moment. What are the versions of this, which you see playing out either in your own life or in others around you? Why is this concept of proxies so important to you?

Amy Scott (31:44)
Yeah.

Well, I guess I have an uncomfortableness around things like chat gpt in terms of things sounding the same or people like like and this was this was the irony or the tension for me as you gave me these amazing prompts that helped me create this amazing scenario but

It was in how do we use this technology? Not for good, that sounds true. So for me there’s a tension between using the technology and then the not using and if by using it does it become more…

Are we basically stopping our own thinking? guess. And so that when we are, so let’s say someone uses it a lot for their LinkedIn posts. A lot of people do, fine. But like then when there’s an opportunity to sit and not have access to it, what do we actually create? what is there? Yeah.

Simon Waller (32:58)
Mmm.

Yeah. And you say it’s fine. And, and again,

I feel the real tension around this. Yeah, that’s okay.

Amy Scott (33:22)
I don’t know if I have an answer. I love that you

asked bloody good questions. And it’s nice I guess for me not to be curated. ⁓ yeah wow and performing. Yeah this is great carry on.

Simon Waller (33:38)
So I had

the same dilemma like when I say, ⁓ for people listening, there’s a document I share with everybody who comes on the show. ⁓ and it’s basically says, so you’ve been invited on the futures friends and you need to write a scenario. And it’s basically for people who are non-futurist types to kind of give them a very high level process that allows them to kind of create a scenario, share an example. And then I give some cognitive prompts. So here’s how you could think through this.

Amy Scott (34:07)
Thank

Simon Waller (34:08)
And then

I’ve shared some generative AI type prompts that match it. And I, when I first pulled that together, I was like, had ⁓ questions about it because I was like, ⁓ is, is that really what I want people to do? And I was like, I can’t rely on people feeling super comfortable with just the cognitive prompts. Cause it’s quite a, a taxing exercise to go through.

Amy Scott (34:14)
Mm.

Mm.

Simon Waller (34:37)
So I’ll do this. And then when I’ve given it to them, I basically say to everybody, try and use them sparingly. The risk of it is exactly what you said. becomes ends up sounding very same, same. And also it risks taking away agency from you in terms of, want you to choose what really matters to you. want you to choose and make decisions about what you think the risks and the concerns are, but also the hopes and dreams are right.

Amy Scott (34:43)
Yeah.

Mm. Mm.

Mm.

Yeah.

Simon Waller (35:05)
So I feel that tension just as you feel that tension. Can I ask you openly though, like what was the mixture for you if you were to go, like I know you use some of the prompts at different points. How did you find that balance of ultimately for yourself?

Amy Scott (35:09)
Please, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, it’s interesting because I had the tension of, this is what it’s created, so do I just send that? And then it could have been done and dusted in 20 minutes. But then I was like, no, I’m sorry. What it did is I got curious. And so then I wanted to play. So that surprised me. I didn’t expect.

the process of using chatgpt to actually then trigger some joy and creativity and curiosity in myself so that I’d go that’s interesting well I’m interested well what is our current what is the current state on there like what is happening with health care and like around connection and loneliness and so there was a whole many rabbit holes that I went down so what I kind of thought I’d need a couple of hours for probably took me more like five

And it was the reflection and the bouncing and then, ⁓ okay, so what would that mean for our schools? Or what does that mean, so for corporations, like in terms of the proxy thing, like how do we know that it’s, what’s the ethics around human and non-human work? Which is what we’re starting to play with or be aware of more now.

Simon Waller (36:13)
⁓ Yeah.

This has come up a couple of times in the podcast, but the book by I’ll call it 4000 weeks. Yeah, and

Amy Scott (36:39)
Wow.

⁓ yeah, ⁓

who’s that? can’t remember but yeah, carry on.

Simon Waller (36:52)
Part of it though is the conclusion that if we really want to understand the concept of productivity, it’s really about, to me, it boils down to this idea of we are what we give our time to. The risk, I think of how this is set up when I share the, the, process with people is we have ⁓ an output. have a measure of success, which is create a scenario. so failure is I didn’t create a scenario. Success is I create a scenario.

Amy Scott (37:04)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Simon Waller (37:22)
Whereas

that’s actually not really what failure and success is. Success is actually the deep exploration of a topic. So I have a better understanding of it and prepare myself for alternative futures that could emerge or something like that. But yeah, but in this.

Amy Scott (37:34)
which I found delightful, right? That’s what I meant this morning

when I said, look, if it’s not good enough and we don’t go ahead, thank you for this gift of providing me with this experience. Anyway, like in fact, you’ve ⁓ profoundly and positively impacted my life just through this opportunity.

Simon Waller (37:58)
So the setup should probably be then, because of Campbell’s law, think, which says that as soon as you choose to put a quantitative measure on something, you create the conditions for that measure to be bastardized and misused effectively. So it fails to be useful as soon as you choose to use it. So if the measure is scenario, not scenario, it actually entices people to use ChatGPT.

Amy Scott (38:13)
and

Right, yeah.

Mm.

Simon Waller (38:25)
to just create the scenario. Cause I ticked the box that said I did my homework effectively. ⁓ whereas if I was to say, Hey, look, ultimately it doesn’t matter whether you come up with a scenario or not. But then it’s like, but then we don’t actually get a show. It’s like, anyway, let’s jump into this a bit more because I really love this. There’s so many beautiful style. think that definitely I picked up on that as well. How do we feel comfortable without that level of social support? ⁓

Amy Scott (38:28)
Yeah. Yeah.

you

Simon Waller (38:54)
But what really comes through in the first half of this is this growing noisiness that we’re dealing with. This idea that ⁓ everyone’s getting louder and louder to try and compete with each other. And I actually thought you captured this beautifully and you can see how we could extrapolate from the present into a future where the level of noise

Amy Scott (39:00)
Mm-mm.

Yeah.

Simon Waller (39:24)
is just a ⁓ messiness of different noises over the top of each other. people are being sent different signals in the world, but they all overlap. When you think about that and when you wrote that, what’s your own personal response to that kind of a future?

Amy Scott (39:38)
Mm-hmm.

hell was excitement and horror?

The noise is enticing, I think.

and distracting. ⁓ that’s interesting. Which can then, seductively take us away from our own feelings. whoa.

Perhaps you should be charging me for this. Shit. Yeah.

It’s kind of… Wow! I’m like… It’s kind of ⁓ the safe numbing. Safe by avoiding feelings.

Simon Waller (40:31)
kind of is like the contemplation as a service.

Amy Scott (40:48)
⁓

by letting ourselves, letting myself, be drawn into the noise and distraction.

Simon Waller (41:03)
I think there is something here whereby we become, as we deal with less silence, we become less comfortable with the silence. If we haven’t spent some time doing the inner work and I fully ⁓ claim and own up to the fact that I haven’t done a lot of that inner work, but if we haven’t done a little bit, then it becomes really hard to do more of it.

Amy Scott (41:05)
Hmm.

Mmm.

Mm.

Yeah.

Simon Waller (41:28)
So

you kind of almost have this catch way to it’s like, no, I do want the noise because I want the distraction. Cause I don’t know how to deal with that stuff.

Amy Scott (41:34)
Mm.

Yeah, and it’s not

necessarily a conscious chasing of the noise that occurs.

Simon Waller (41:44)
Hmm. It’s even like the busyness stuff. Like I find, and I’ve talked about this with, with my wife Nomes a number of times is that off.

Amy Scott (41:48)
you

I love Nome. Make sure you give

her a cuddle from me. ⁓ thank you. she’s just sunshine. Love her.

Simon Waller (41:56)
will. I will. hi, by the way, I told told her that I was catching up with you today. She’s like, Say hi to Amy for me.

She was saying

that we’ve had this conversation number of times around the concept of busyness in our personal lives and how we feel almost compelled to go from the busyness of work to the busyness of home to the busyness of chores on weekends. And we almost feel a level of guilt around relaxing and personal time and me time. And, you know, we’ve talked about this need to

give each other permission so that almost in doing so we give ourselves permission. Cause if I’ve given her permission to say, look, of course you deserve two hours or three hours and a half a day on a weekend to do whatever the hell you want to do. And if she says that, and I say that we’re also saying about ourselves, not just each other, but it’s almost harder to give ourselves permission. It’s easy to give someone else permission. see almost in this, it’s almost like, of course.

Amy Scott (42:39)
Mm.

Hmm.

Simon Waller (43:00)
You deserve silence and time for calm and time for reflection. And perhaps that that means is so do I.

Amy Scott (43:07)
Yeah.

Yeah, that’s, yeah.

Yeah, see I remember thinking like, because I’m quite all or nothing in my thinking. ⁓ what’s it called? Full on or fuck all. And so I guess when I did ⁓ the retreat, I loved the freedom from not having to talk to people, because there was no, you couldn’t. So no eye contact and no sound, no talking for 10 days. And ⁓ so I loved that.

that permission not to engage. I love that. I found that so liberating. I didn’t realise how wired I was to engage with everyone or have to. right. And then the other thing, though, is I remember thinking, yeah, 10 days. Cool. I could go and live in an ashram for three months. No problem. could whatever. Cool. But how do we bring it into?

Simon Waller (43:46)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Amy Scott (44:09)
back into everyday life? Like how do I bring those little bits of silence or that?

Simon Waller (44:17)
One of

the lines you used here, which really resonated with me about the concept of silence being elitist.

Amy Scott (44:24)
Yeah, yeah.

Simon Waller (44:25)
which

I’ve had super interesting and I kind of partly picked it up from conversations like say, you know, doing a 10 day silent retreat. And some people would look at that and go, well, that’s great for some, but there’s no way I could afford. when I say afford, maybe both financially and time, I kind of afford just to go and do nothing for 10 days. And there is an elitist aspect of it. ⁓

Amy Scott (44:35)
Yeah. Yeah.

time, travel. ⁓

Exactly.

Yeah, very privileged, very entitled. Exactly. And so then, and I guess then that caused me to consider then, then does the silence become a premium like fresh water, like fresh air?

Simon Waller (44:56)
Hmm

Amy Scott (45:13)
So we’re thinking in 20 years time, what’s our world going to look like? And if our health demands us to have some silence, is everyone going to have access to that? Which is why Mateo was looking at putting in a thing where we have to do, ⁓ what was that? Was a silent actually having to, yeah. ⁓

What was it? Mandatory silent protocols and decision making.

Simon Waller (45:43)
I’ll

come to that back in a sec because there’s some stuff in there that again, I think is super interesting in this scenario, but the concept of privilege when it comes to silence and you touched on this idea of there’s a line around the block for the pod that you can go into and have a moment of calm and this concept of calm as a service. This really kind of spoke to me. I love the kind of subtle absurdity of it.

Amy Scott (46:04)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Simon Waller (46:12)
that

you can also see as emerging out of the current situation. And I picked up as like, you know, when you have, you obviously spend your share of time on doing business travel and you see the professional travelers and they walk around with their noise canceling headphones on and they have their like protocols that they put in place so that they can block out the noise and the stuff going on around them. And in this world that you described,

Amy Scott (46:23)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Simon Waller (46:42)
I thought about how again, noise canceling devices would be almost like path of the course. And you’re really, the noise is really directed at the people who can’t afford such devices. But also if you could have a noise canceling headphones, could you also have vision canceling glasses that you wear glasses and lenses that ⁓ block out billboards and replace them with

Amy Scott (46:50)
Yeah.

slowly.

Simon Waller (47:10)
a natural scene that might’ve sit behind that, that you actually have the ability, like, I mean, noise canceling headphones work by creating like the negative wave of the sound wave. You could create the negative wave of the light wave and you could, right? But then also, why wouldn’t you also have smell canceling masks? You know, that you could actually create a bubble for yourself in this.

Amy Scott (47:21)
Mm.

Absolutely.

So then it wouldn’t

matter if we had toxa if we ruined the environment because it doesn’t matter if it smells bad. So then we then we start to cure it. ⁓ wow.

Simon Waller (47:40)
Well, so first of all, there’s two things that come up. One is our care. Our care becomes less because that’s other people’s problem. I’m not dealing with it. Yeah. And the second part

of that is though, is just as you know, noise canceling technology will get better and better is that you can still hear the low hum, right? It’s never silence. It is a hum. There’s almost a pervasive hum, whether it be an audible one or a vision hum or something.

Amy Scott (47:59)
Mmm.

Simon Waller (48:09)
that stops us being in silence. And I kind of found that really interesting that we almost like replace. And this is the other thing that, cause silence is not silence.

Amy Scott (48:21)
That’s right.

Simon Waller (48:23)
silence is still the sound of, you know, the wind in the trees and the birds singing and the water in the creek. It’s all those sounds are the natural sounds of silence. And if we were to cancel them all, we lose our connection with the natural environment as well. So there’s a something in there as that I kind of always almost came up with was like, ⁓ what this, this kind of objective of silence.

Amy Scott (48:41)
Mmm. Mmm.

Simon Waller (48:52)
may take away things that are actually really important for our mental health.

Amy Scott (48:56)
Yeah, like imagine then, yeah, I love this because then you think about even now like the salt pods, you know, the floating tanks and then you get to curate what music or what sounds or just nothing and so then, ⁓ yeah, wow. So then I, yeah, do you then get a prescription for what you need to listen to in the float tank?

Simon Waller (49:05)
Mmm, yeah.

When ⁓ Yeah…

Amy Scott (49:21)
cause you haven’t had enough nature sounds. Do you know it? Like

I’m like, Ooh, like wow.

Simon Waller (49:28)
But even then it’s like we’re not getting nature sounds, we’re getting pretend nature sounds.

Amy Scott (49:31)
No. Right,

Simon Waller (49:35)
So when ⁓

Mike came on the podcast and he talked about the future of the past and he shared this story of him going up on country with some indigenous elders out of, out in, in, in think the Pilbara region, maybe Kimberly, sorry, just in inland from Broome. And he shared this story about the last night they were out on country and he’s there with a bunch of musos cause there was a support, like a benefit gig that was happening in Broome and they’re by the fire. One of the musos gets out to guitarist that’s playing and was like, this is pretty cool.

Amy Scott (49:51)
Yeah.

Simon Waller (50:04)
private little gig and then he plays another song and then a third song and a fourth song. then he kind of looked around and most of the mob had kind of moved to another spot and started another fire.

Amy Scott (50:18)
Interesting.

Simon Waller (50:19)
Because

all the music, as much as it was nice, meant they couldn’t hear the ancestors and the spirits.

Amy Scott (50:28)
Wow.

Simon Waller (50:29)
And in their context, I would suggest, and again, I’m not an area of expertise. It’s not the fact that those ancestors spirits make noise. If they make particular noises at particular times, that means something. And so having a recording of natural sounds in a sleep, like in a sensory deprivation tank is meaningless because it has no connection to a place and to a time is just a recording of something. And this feels really important.

Amy Scott (50:52)
and be there.

Yeah.

Simon Waller (51:00)
in

a way that we are creating artificial versions of things that are actually really meaningful and pretending that the artificial version of it is the same thing. Whether that be, you know, relationships mediated through technology and, and, you know, what would it mean to connect without our Miro’s? Whether it be, um, you know, even this as a podcast recording and us going up, but we caught up and how different it was from when we had dinner together a couple of months back, which was so beautiful.

Amy Scott (51:10)
Yeah.

me

Yeah, oh yeah,

that was, thank you for that, it was amazing.

Simon Waller (51:31)
Yeah.

but also so many different versions of this where we have something that was really important, for our mental health and wellbeing that sometimes we create a facsimile of it and go, that’ll do.

Amy Scott (51:42)
Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and will our children… Like, I hope all children know the difference. I hope that everyone gets to experience… Again, speaking from a really bloody privileged perspective, right?

Simon Waller (52:14)
But even, know, I just, when you said that about our children, reminded me even the conversations I’ve had about food and where does food come from and particular meat comes from. my oldest daughter Mia, she’s a vegetarian. She had a realisation, you know, when she was probably eight years old that that meat, what is a dead animal. And she felt super uncomfortable and didn’t like the idea that animal had to die for her to eat. And so since the age of eight, she has been a vegetarian and never wavered because

Amy Scott (52:20)
Mmm.

Mm.

Simon Waller (52:44)
It’s not about the flavor or the texture. It’s about the concept of it. I grew up, my dad was a professional fisherman. So I have grown up with witnessing animals being killed for food. And, and as long as it’s done in a humane way, I’m, I’m okay with it. I do believe.

Amy Scott (52:48)
Yeah, well…

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, unless

it’s just for enjoyment, right, and then I have that, again, tension because someone would say, well what difference does it make? The animal’s still going to lose its life.

Simon Waller (53:13)
Mm. Yeah. And then. Yeah.

Amy Scott (53:15)
Especially growing up in a farming community.

Or you know, you think about Dr John Demartini, he’s an interesting rooster. Anyway, but he would say the animals are only here because we need food. They wouldn’t be here unless we needed them. Which is, yeah. Yes, that’s right. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

Simon Waller (53:33)
is in terms of ⁓ farmed animals. yeah. Yeah.

And there’s some interesting aspects of that is what is the quality of life that animal got before it sacrifices life for us. So it’s a very interesting possessives. My view is always though is like, well, if you want to eat it, you need to acknowledge where it came from. And the idea of believing that, you know, lamb comes in a styrofoam container in the supermarket.

Amy Scott (53:47)
Yes, yeah, yeah.

Yes.

Simon Waller (54:02)
As opposed to it was once an animal. That’s why I pushed back on it. But again, there’s certain aspects of this, which are tied to, you know, one, a sense of privilege. There you have a supermarket that you go to where someone has pre butchered the animal for you and only giving you the best bits in a package. Like how, how elitist that is. So this is, this is super interesting that I think in Western culture, potentially.

Amy Scott (54:05)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Kiss.

Simon Waller (54:29)
we

are becoming more divorced or separated from some of the natural systems that we’re deeply reliant on for our very survival.

Amy Scott (54:37)
Yeah, and as I was going through this process, like it wasn’t just silent retreats, it was things around, you know, nature, just getting back in nature and how important that was. But then that raised the thing around, well in 20 years time, what is hopefully our world, and we still got access to lots of nature. And what are we doing to ensure that for 20 years time?

Simon Waller (54:58)
Hmm. So yeah, this goes go back to the concept of what Mateo is putting forward here. So Mateo has been for this idea that this level of silence should be required. It should be mandated. And on one hand, I get it. I understand why where Mateo is coming from. I believe there’s ⁓ a lie already in organisations that

Amy Scott (55:06)
and

Mmm.

Hmm.

Mm. Mm.

Simon Waller (55:28)
the idea of silence and pausing before meetings. I’ve actually worked in an organisation where it was a requirement that everyone had to pause for 60 seconds at the start of a meeting. How it fights against our inherent belief that that’s inefficient. We just don’t have time for that. Though I actually agree with Mateo’s premise here is that taking time for that pause ultimately will give us a little bit more space to think.

Amy Scott (55:35)
What?

is here.

Mm. Mm.

Simon Waller (55:55)
It will

give us the opportunity to leave whatever baggage we came into the room with and enter into a space of decision making which is more ultimately more effective. We are trade efficiency for effectiveness.

Amy Scott (56:04)
and hopefully

more intentional. Yeah. So,

Simon Waller (56:08)
Yeah. This is a dilemma that plays out in organisations

everywhere because efficiency is immediate and obvious.

Amy Scott (56:17)
It’s easy to measure, right? This head stuff, all of these, yeah, easy to measure and research.

Simon Waller (56:19)
Correct. Yeah.

And we talk about the

effectiveness of an intentional decision and a better decision. And first of all, we don’t even know what the alternative decision was that we’re comparing against. Right. And then second of all, the implications of that decision may not play out immediately. They may play out over, you know, when I work with local government, it’s often decades. So how long do you need to wait to work out whether or not that investment of 60 seconds at beginning of the meeting was actually a good one. So I think there’s that.

Amy Scott (56:38)
That’s what do.

Simon Waller (56:54)
stuff that goes on. But the other part of this as well, which really struck me about the concept of a mandate. So again, we obviously have lived through a pandemic where in both our countries, masks were mandated.

Amy Scott (56:59)
⁓ yeah.

Mmm.

Simon Waller (57:10)
And when we mandate things, the experience isn’t always a good one.

Some people very much dislike the concept of something being mandated on them. But in fact, I would say most people hate being told what to do.

Amy Scott (57:21)
Mm.

I’d agree with that. ⁓

Simon Waller (57:29)
Yeah.

And so for some of the population, they would take the time to come to the conclusion that such a decision was a good one. In which case the mandate is not even required because they perhaps would have done it anyway. For others, the idea that was mandated would mean, well, I’m definitely not going to be doing that now. Tell you that right now.

Amy Scott (57:46)
Mm.

100%.

100%.

Simon Waller (57:56)
I find that

a very interesting in some ways, the concept of the mandate is in itself an act of efficiency.

Amy Scott (58:05)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Waller (58:08)
Right?

The quickest way to get to this outcome that we all need is we’re going to force it to happen. Like don’t have time to wait for people to come to this conclusion for themselves, Amy. Seriously, we’re on a timeline here. Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah, apply that to this concept of the silence is if we mandate silence, does it actually undermine the very premise of it in the first place?

Amy Scott (58:14)
Yeah.

Yeah. We’re on a timeline. People are dying, Simon.

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah I love it.

They’re so, yeah, you’re right. they’re so, yeah, it’s a bit like, you know, in New Zealand, a lot of organisations will have karakia, so a Māori prayer before meetings. And so…

And if that helps people to be intentional in a room, I think that’s amazing, right? But then the juxtaposition though is if that then rubs someone out the wrong way who doesn’t want to do that, does that then have the opposite effect on them for the rest of the meeting?

Simon Waller (59:15)
Hmm. So tell us about that. Tell us about that ritual. How does it work?

Amy Scott (59:17)
⁓ Yes,

so opening with a prayer. So ⁓ an honouring of everyone that’s in the room and their intention. And I’m no expert, right, in Māori culture. I live in New Zealand. I’ve got a lot to learn. Love it. And the karakia for me, for me personally, just helps me ground, for me to be grounded in the room. And I really like it. I love it.

Simon Waller (59:46)
Hmm.

Amy Scott (59:50)
because I feel like it’s an intentional practice. We’re here, we’re about to do something important or something that matters.

Simon Waller (59:57)
Yeah.

Amy Scott (59:58)
People who may struggle or do struggle are people who are more efficiency based and don’t you, I don’t want religion or it’s not, that’s not how I receive it. So I don’t, so they’ll go, I don’t want that. Like I don’t, you know, we’ve only got an hour together, Simon. So why would we spend even a minute on something that’s not on the agenda or not, you know, not, you know, not ⁓ something we need to measure and chat about or whatever. So.

Simon Waller (1:00:25)
Hmm.

Amy Scott (1:00:26)
Yeah, I find that fascinating.

Simon Waller (1:00:28)
Yeah. And how much of the time we people spend that meeting waiting for their opportunity to have their say and any minute to the beginning that is wasted is a minute I might not get to have my say, which I wonder if that’s more like, again, we’re delving into a space around kind of psychology and stuff, is not, is not an area of expertise, but it won’t stop me from having an opinion.

Amy Scott (1:00:34)
Yeah.

Hmm.

No.

I love it.

Simon Waller (1:00:56)
But this idea

of like, ⁓ honoring, you know, like if, if I feel like I’m in that room and my, my, my presence there isn’t valued or isn’t honored, then I will feel compelled to say something or do something so that I’m recognised.

Amy Scott (1:00:58)
Mm.

Mm.

Simon Waller (1:01:21)
If we could have had a space in the first place where everyone felt honored. And I think that it probably comes a little bit stems from the premise of what you’re saying. It’s like, Hey, just before we start, I just want to say, I want to honor everybody for being here. That just by taking the time to be here, that is important. Thank you. And if we were all honored now, then we don’t feel a need to then have to be honored again at some point by saying something.

Amy Scott (1:01:31)
Mm.

you

Simon Waller (1:01:48)
I do wonder, I know, you know, within Australia, there’s a lot of pushback around things like welcome to country, which is not, I don’t think it’s not the same premise as what you’re talking about. ⁓ but it has comes with similar baggage. comes with, ⁓ first nations baggage, which is people are pushing back on it. Not because it’s not a good idea. It’s because it is representative of a group of people or a culture that is threatening.

Amy Scott (1:01:54)
Mm.

Mmm.

Mm.

Simon Waller (1:02:18)
to our own sense of identity. Like the one that comes up here around welcome to country is like, well, who are you to welcome me to my country? You know, and it’s like, I don’t think that’s really the intent, right?

Amy Scott (1:02:28)
Yeah, yeah. don’t think that’s what it’s

about but yeah, yeah. But then there’s an, I guess there’s an assumption we’re making around people being open or self-aware or I guess the big assumption I’m making is that that people want to connect.

and maybe some people don’t.

Simon Waller (1:03:03)
I

believe we all need connection, but we may not feel a need for that connection with everybody.

Amy Scott (1:03:14)
Yeah.

Simon Waller (1:03:17)
We might feel that, you know, I’ve got a very good friend of mine over in Perth who very proudly says like, I can count my friends on my hand, you know, like that is my number of friends I’ve got. Obviously he could never run a podcast called the future with friends because like we’d do five episodes and that would be it.

Amy Scott (1:03:27)
nothing.

Yeah,

yeah, he’d need to find a better day job, you know.

Simon Waller (1:03:37)
Yeah. Yeah.

But he would, he might have a show though, ⁓ that he is like, ⁓ the future with acquaintances, you know, cause he would have lots of acquaintances and stuff in his work, but he would never kind of narrow them down to being friends. His belief around the need to have a deep sense of connection or any type of connection with those people outside of that handful, ⁓ is, is pretty low. And I think there’s a bunch of people out there who like that goes, I’ve got enough connection with that small group of people. I don’t need it from others.

Amy Scott (1:03:46)
Thank

Mm.

Mm.

Simon Waller (1:04:06)
They may even look at people like yourself and myself as being kind of needy, you know, that we have this constant need for connection. I wonder though, if there’s another perspective, which is this idea that we are all connected already, whether we like it or not, we are all connected and, ⁓ we may not know the strengths or weaknesses of those connections or the reasons behind them.

Amy Scott (1:04:11)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%.

Mm.

Simon Waller (1:04:36)
But we are all connected and I believe also for people like yourself and myself, there is a curiosity around where that connection exists. And it may be a connection through people or ideas or places, but that exploration of connection is also a very powerful idea.

Amy Scott (1:04:42)
Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s that curiosity. Yeah, I guess I love learning about others and cheerleading. I ⁓ love seeing people bravely doing their work, whatever that is.

You know, please, yeah please.

Simon Waller (1:05:22)
I share with you before we

move on because in a second we have to start closing out which feels ⁓ yeah I know ⁓ feels like it’s come too soon

Amy Scott (1:05:29)
really?

Call yourself a friend. Call yourself a friend. ⁓

Simon Waller (1:05:38)
This idea that really, one

of my favorite lines in this was this idea that without shared pauses, trust thins. I love the concept of trust thinning. As well, I don’t like the idea of it. I love the way that it’s been articulated. Is that trust doesn’t, we often frame things in binaries. It’s either I trust you or I don’t trust you. I like the concept of it thinning is like the trust just becomes

Amy Scott (1:05:45)
Mmm.

Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.

Mm.

Simon Waller (1:06:06)
more fragile over time. What with that, that concept though about without shared pauses trusting, was there, was that something that you came up with? Was it something that you, that, ⁓ AI generated or was it like, what’s the, what does it mean to you? What does that, where does that stem from for you?

Amy Scott (1:06:32)
⁓ I feel like it was AI generated, right? But the sense for me was not just around pauses. I think it for me was more about without shared purpose or… ⁓

a sense of doing something for each other and ourselves. That’s kind of what it felt like for me. was like without just not jumping into what’s the point, but almost.

Simon Waller (1:07:11)
Mmm.

Amy Scott (1:07:12)
So it’s like, I guess for me it’s kind of like when people go, well I don’t have to connect with people, just jumping into a day to day stuff and I’ll go, but you work with people, you sell to people, so why wouldn’t you just tweak to get the best out of that moment? Why wouldn’t you just do that for your health? Why wouldn’t you? So I guess for me the shared pause would be,

I think it’s the honouring. I think it’s the honouring of the space of being here, being now, you being you, me being me.

And without that, then are we just dictated to or do we not really be present?

My camera hasn’t stuck by the way, I’m just practicing. I’m practicing pausing. No, sorry, I jumped into my feelings. You see what I did there? I jumped into my feelings and I quickly made a joke because that’s what I do when I’m feeling scared. ⁓ You know the…

Simon Waller (1:08:12)
No, no, There’s a couple of things that came up. It came up from…

Yeah, I did some work. Um, uh,

know must be a couple of years ago now, um, with a shaman, um, that Mike also, Michael Dixon also works with and kind of put me onto and, uh, Marty was based in the U S and we had a little peer group of around six of us or so that were on this journey together. We’re concepts around kind of.

Amy Scott (1:08:30)
⁓ love this.

Simon Waller (1:08:50)
pausing and connection were really, really important. She held really strong beliefs that, we could connect with each other, ⁓ as if we were in person over distance. So the fact that you and I on a, on a video call for this is all right. If we can sit in that shared space, almost like it was a, like a connection at a, at a physical level rather than at a mental level. And the premise being is that

Amy Scott (1:09:16)
and then.

Simon Waller (1:09:20)
Our thoughts and the words that come out our mouth are based on the thoughts, which are an interpretation of our bodily feelings, is that the bodily feeling space that we have a deep sense of connection. When we kind of filter that through into words and talk, we actually have much more chance of disconnect happening as well. And I do think about that, that the present is problematic. And I mean that when we talk in the present, we have problems that we’re trying to solve.

Amy Scott (1:09:29)
Thank

Simon Waller (1:09:45)
You have a position and I have a position and we’re trying to mediate the position, but we start from that point of almost difference. So what’s your opinion on this, Amy? Is my opinion on this and can we resolve this opinion in the silence? Perhaps we find commonality and we find, as you said, you talked about kind of the concept of connection. And maybe if we start from now, it’s like, Oh, okay, cool. At least we’ve got all that. And although we may not have the thing around that involves words, we start from the premise of that connection.

Amy Scott (1:09:51)
Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.

Hmm.

Simon Waller (1:10:17)
Do you use any of this in your, in your dotting type work? Have you, have you tried bringing pauses and silence into that?

Amy Scott (1:10:26)
No,

no, but this is again, this is revolutionising how I’m thinking about those workshops. can say that the different dots, the different ways of dots is just a New Zealand made system, different ways of processing information. I can see that different of the different dots will have, will easily or lean into the pausing or resist it completely.

Simon Waller (1:10:54)
Yeah.

I also wondered though, whether you, like, so one of the dilemmas I see with this is, you know, as I said, I’ve worked in one organisation where the CEO was the instigator and it was a small organisation. So there weren’t many meetings where that CEO wasn’t present. And it was probably an organisation that was a little bit new age-ish in a sense. There was a catalyst for the pauses to happen.

Amy Scott (1:10:55)
Yeah.

Mm.

Simon Waller (1:11:22)
And there was a general willingness to participate in it from the audience. Right. And I feel about how hard that might be in general organisations where there isn’t a strong catalyst and the person who voices, voices up and goes, know, we should do a 32nd pause before we start. There’d be a bunch of people that have what the, you know, in that environment though, you, you have a, amazing influence over, over quite large organisations sometimes in terms of the concept of communication and how they communicate. And I know your work is incredibly well received.

Amy Scott (1:11:38)
Mm. Mm.

Mm.

Thank

Simon Waller (1:11:53)
And people go,

my God, it’s so insightful to us. Something understand a little bit more clearly. wonder though, whether or not someone like yourself suggesting that this is a really powerful protocol might actually give permission for people on mass to embrace an idea that they would not have entertained unless it was they heard it from you.

Amy Scott (1:11:57)
Mmm.

Simon Waller (1:12:21)
in that of my environment packaged up with all the other amazing work you do. But you don’t mean like you validate it through all your other work and they go, and if Amy says we pause, I mean like, who am I to argue with Amy?

Amy Scott (1:12:25)
Mm, mm.

I feel very uncomfortable about having that power and I’m pretty sure I don’t. ⁓ I think it’s gently challenge the way we do things and why we do them and hopefully the challenging is encouraging people to be more open to different ways of considering things and ⁓

Simon Waller (1:12:36)
You

Amy Scott (1:13:01)
And if, so we were talking about 2045, right? And so if everything is really overstimulated and noisy and our health is taking a toll, which is trending as if it will, ⁓ then it becomes ⁓ like a public health measure. So now it would be maybe gimmicky or good for some people.

But perhaps in 20 years time it won’t. And so why wouldn’t we play with the idea of doing some of these things now? What is the real cost of 60 seconds? Silence.

Simon Waller (1:13:41)
I did.

Yeah.

I did make a note here whether or not silence may become a human right or there’s calls for silence to become a human right. And we see pollution in the biggest sense of the word has been not just pollution of a river or yeah, we see pollution of, yeah.

Amy Scott (1:13:48)
it.

Yeah.

100 % yeah so yeah

like the right to silence, right to fresh water, the right to light, the right to clean air, fresh air like yeah yeah

Simon Waller (1:14:18)
So this is all, I’ve loved this conversation. have really even, I’ve enjoyed the pauses in it. And I know some people listening to this, Oscar, if Oscar was listening to this, he’d be like, there was no pauses. But I feel like we’ve done great, Amy.

Amy Scott (1:14:19)
Mmm.

you

Yeah,

like I know you and you know me and I know me mostly. Probably could do a bit more work on myself. ⁓ But yeah, I believe we’ve done well.

Simon Waller (1:14:49)
I also mentioned that a lot of podcasts these days, which I think you were a guest at was the idea that they will edit out the pauses because any moment that not isn’t filled with information is considered a wasteful, which isn’t in some ways, not dissimilar to, know, you mentioned here watching the newsfeed and the newsfeed is how do I take this hour long press conference and condense it into a 30 second snippet of the most important points?

⁓ we will though be leaving in this podcast, all the pauses in there for people to relish in. What apart from that, this idea, you know, there’s a strong premise here around, could we bring pauses in outside of that? Do you have any advice for our listeners as into small things that they could do to push their own world or their own life in a more positive direction? mean, there, feels like there’s a strong stance you have here.

that we need all need more space and more silence in our lives. I would tend to agree with you. We need to somehow push back against this avalanche of information and noise that has become the pub, almost a public realm. Do you have any advice for people? Are you doling out advice today?

Amy Scott (1:16:06)
No, I don’t think I am because well I’m just mindful like this is a journey for me and so I’ve got so much to learn for myself and I guess what I’m what this has caused me to really reflect on and

⁓ spend some time unpicking or following that thread of my soul, which is lovely, is the intentionally connecting but also the purposeful disconnecting and when I flex into either and so externally but also internally if that makes sense. So

I don’t know that I’ve been great at internally connecting with myself and perhaps externally I haven’t been great at deliberately disconnecting from what doesn’t serve me.

Simon Waller (1:17:06)
So what advice might you give yourself then? If you want to, and I want something like practical, if possible, something that you would almost make a commitment to.

Amy Scott (1:17:10)
So my advice for myself would be, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So ⁓ what I commit to doing is I commit to journaling and really digging into what does deliberate disconnection mean, which isn’t just social media. There’s more depth in that than just social media or toxic people or what does it mean for Amy Scott?

And what does intentional connection to myself mean? are these, is there one at the cost of the other? Or how does that? I don’t know. What routines, what rituals? Actually what comes to mind is I do need to actually create or commit to silence.

So when back when I did the partner retreat, just after that, even just 15 or 20 minutes of just silence each morning was really, ironically, you think you’ve got no time, but taking the time to have the silence.

Simon Waller (1:18:27)
I know this was a serious moment, but I just had this thought of like you having just to tell Dan beforehand, can you wake me up in 15 minutes?

Amy Scott (1:18:35)
Well, let’s be honest, that’s probably what’s going to happen. I probably am going to fall asleep. But then why judge myself for it? Like I’m still trying, right? And then let’s just perhaps I’ll get better at it. And if anyone hears me snoring, can you just wake me up? Make sure I’m not drooling because it’s really attractive.

Simon Waller (1:18:36)
You

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah.

Yeah. And this has also come up a couple of times in various podcasts. And again, it partly inspired when I asked Mike the same question and he was like, spend more time in nature. Just go sit under a tree. I think that idea of finding spaces, I know this is probably really hard for people, especially living in the city areas, but finding a place where you can, even if we can’t be completely devoid of all noise pollution.

Amy Scott (1:18:56)
.

You

Yeah.

Simon Waller (1:19:21)
but find a place where we are connecting even in a small way with the natural environment and natural sounds is probably super healthy. My last question is, and I know you’ve kind of alluded to different things along the way, and you’ve said wonderful things about the process. What is something that you will take away from this process or this conversation? So obviously we, you it started a few weeks back when I kind of hit you up to be on the podcast.

Amy Scott (1:19:28)
Mm.

Hmm?

Simon Waller (1:19:50)
I’m really curious though about how what’s has shifted for you in this.

Amy Scott (1:19:56)
you’ve stirred a deeper… well no, it wasn’t even there before but you’ve disturbed… you’ve disturbed… you’ve created a deep curiosity for learning more about silence which is the… I know I’ve come up with silence initially but I did not really consider the connection, disconnection

and how the world is morphing. I just hadn’t really considered the impact and the impact it’s having on me now.

Simon Waller (1:20:31)
Hmm. One of the lines I use is that the future is a safe space to have difficult conversations. I imagine for you and for I, yeah, but the concept of silence and disconnection in the present, it was probably very confronting for us and I think for a lot of people. When we can talk about it as

Amy Scott (1:20:37)
⁓ I love that. Can I use that? I’ll attribute it to you of course.

Mm.

Mm.

Simon Waller (1:20:59)
What might this be like five years or 10 years or 20 years from now? And we can see where the world takes us and how this need for silence grows in, ⁓ in its importance. Then the next part of that is where we can kind of back cast and go, well, if, I needed to have a really healthy relationship with silence and disconnection in that world, what would I need to start doing now? Now, what are those kinds of pixie steps?

Amy Scott (1:21:12)
Mm.

Simon Waller (1:21:28)
that I would need to take. So I do think that’s really interesting. And again, this journey and this conversation has been really insightful for me too, because I do suffer from the same afflictions, Amy, that you do.

Amy Scott (1:21:40)
Really? Are you human? my goodness Simon Waller, I had you on this big pedestal. I love you. I love you. I loved it. I love the authenticity. just, yeah, I love that I can be me. ⁓ So good. You were so delicious. I love it.

Simon Waller (1:21:42)
Yeah. Yeah, I know.

You do, you do, do you very well, I think.

Amy, thank you so much for being on the show. It’s been so lovely. Like this conversation has been beautiful. ⁓ and we’ve obviously over the time of our friendship, we’ve had a number of conversations at different times. but we also kind of had a little bit gap in between where we haven’t been as in contact with each other. I really loved catch up for dinner when we were in Melbourne, I suppose about a month or two back and doing this and,

Amy Scott (1:22:03)
Peace.

Okay.

Mm.

Simon Waller (1:22:30)
Even if we don’t have podcast recordings to do, we should catch up and chat more often.

Amy Scott (1:22:34)
Yeah please, yeah, yeah, yeah definitely. You just enrich my life, it’s so good for my soul, thank you. Thank you Simon.

Simon Waller (1:22:43)
Well, on that note, this is the end of episode 16 of

the Future with Friends. Thank you so much, Amy. Wonderful to have you with us and for all the people listening, we’ll be back in a couple of weeks with another episode. Take care.

Amy Scott (1:22:49)
Thank you.

Thanks for having me beautiful.