Simon Waller (00:01.678)

Hello and welcome back to the future with friends. Today I’m being joined by a very dear friend of mine, Yamini Naidu. Yamini and wow, gosh, like first of all, absolute honor to have you on the show. And we’ve known each other for a while. Like we’ve known each other well over a decade. Do you remember like how, what our meeting, our first meeting was or where do you remember me from?

Yamini (00:31.204)

So I’m gonna absolutely remember you and I was searching for your name in my inbox and I found something from 2014 from you. So I remember I was sitting in the hub and you were speaking and I was totally entranced, I was enchanted. I was like, oh my God, I wanna work with this person, I wanna know what he does, he’s just so cool. And I think then we worked formally together, you helped me just get some like…

Simon Waller (00:36.876)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (00:50.413)

We did. But so before that, so yeah, so this is, um, hub Melbourne. So I moved, I moved to Melbourne in 2010. And at the time I was actually in with a group of people, we’re going to open up hub in Perth. And then I moved with my, my wife and my young family over to Melbourne and they just launched hub Melbourne. And so that’s where I kind of ended up working from, which I think is where, so what, what, what year did you turn up in hub Melbourne then? Yeah.

Yamini (00:54.965)

Hub Melbourne

Yamini (01:15.338)

We met.

As soon as it opened. So that was 2010, even earlier? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Waller (01:20.236)

between 2011, 10, 11, that area. Yeah. Cause I also think that we were both around, there was a group called the creative performance exchange with Pete Spence. And that I think we kind of like, we’re kind of in these similar little circles, but you’re right, 2014, we ended up doing some work together. Um, and I’ve always just loved, mean, so your work.

Yamini (01:28.298)

Yes. Yes, that’s it.

Yamini (01:35.883)

Yes.

Yamini (01:40.129)

Yes.

Simon Waller (01:45.96)

is, know, in this space around kind of storytelling. And I think you kind of started doing it before it was cool.

Yamini (01:51.308)

Yes, I started in 2005, before it was a thing. Everyone thought I was mad.

Simon Waller (01:58.227)

Yeah. And so apart from the wonderful energy that you bring whenever we have a conversation, I have always been intrigued about, you know, when you bring storytellers into this space around scenarios and imagining the future about what happened to that space. And so that’s kind of why I’ve been like very keen to have you come and join me on the podcast. So it’s pretty exciting.

Yamini (02:14.142)

And

Yamini (02:27.212)

Thank you so much. Thank you, Simon.

Simon Waller (02:31.746)

And so, as listeners would know, when you come on the show, you get made to do all the work. we have it, which is kind of actually, think there’s an interesting irony given the topic that we’re to be talking about today, which we’ll get to in a second. But so this idea that, you know, I often reach out and go, hey, Yamini, you know, love to have you on the show. And there’s this kind of little bit of a quid pro quo, which is one.

Yamini (02:45.972)

Bye.

Simon Waller (02:58.313)

We can talk about anything you want, but you are responsible for writing this scenario or this story around the future. And, uh, yeah, I actually went on somebody else’s podcast the other day, um, for a group called, I don’t know if you heard the do lectures over in. Yeah. Oh, so they’ve got a, they’ve got do radio. Um, and again, interestingly enough, so we do radio, they record these radio episodes.

Yamini (03:06.464)

You

Yamini (03:15.946)

Yes, fabulous, fabulous. You were on the podcast. loved them. Yeah.

Simon Waller (03:27.475)

They play them, I think it’s 11 times over a week. And then that’s it. They disappear. There’s no record. There’s no permanent recording of them. So if you don’t listen to it during that week, you will never actually hear the episode.

Yamini (03:41.866)

I love it, Simon, it’s the idea of making something ephemeral. It’s in our real world, know, lot of sometimes indigenous art can be ephemeral, know, body painting or, yeah, I love that idea, yeah.

Simon Waller (03:45.916)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (03:52.945)

And I was sharing about when I first started this podcast, I had a little bit of guilt about asking people to do the work. And I kind of made a joke because like, you know, I just get them to do it rather than me do it. But it’s not actually that. I realised that the energy from the show comes from, you know, the variety of different types of stories and stuff that you hear. And the only way to get that variety of stories is to get guests to contribute and write them, right?

But I’ve actually found over time that the thing that I feel guilty about in some ways gets so embraced by guests. And when I read your scenario for the first time a few days ago, I was just like, oh my God, you can just see the amount of effort and energy that you’ve put into this. It’s beautiful. Talk us though through around the topic that you’ve chosen and perhaps a little bit about why you’ve chosen it.

Yamini (04:45.836)

Yeah.

Yamini (04:49.772)

But Simon, I just want to say thank you. When you first sent the question through getting us to do, that was like homework. And I haven’t done homework for a long time. And I was like, I can’t do it. I can’t do it. But when I actually sat down to do it, I can’t tell you how much I enjoyed it. Our topic today is this idea of friction maxing. So it’s a concept that a journalist, Catherine Jacob Morton.

Simon Waller (04:56.006)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (05:02.951)

Yeah, well the irony of our topic today, huh?

Simon Waller (05:13.029)

Yes.

Yamini (05:18.134)

She made it popular and I want to just make sure I get these facts right. So she made it popular through an article in The Cut. So know so much of our life is just optimised for convenience. know ordering food, just everything we do is optimised. So technology is always about let’s do things smoothly. And you really don’t want a lot of friction in your life because who likes waiting in queues, who likes being told your call is important to us, you know. But then this idea of like if you take out

Simon Waller (05:31.598)

everything we do is so technologies and you really don’t want a of friction in your life because

Yamini (05:46.549)

so much friction that life almost becomes a tad boring. This is when people are now starting to seek on their own terms ways to do things that are slightly bit harder, just creating, bringing in a little bit more friction into their lives because this is the messy bit, the unpredictable bit where serendipity happens, connection happens. I also had an experience just sort of when I roughly read that article.

Simon Waller (06:06.742)

I was having an experience

Yamini (06:14.524)

of getting on a, so I left home at like 5 a.m. in the morning to travel to New Zealand, to Auckland. And after kissing my partner goodbye, getting in a car service where we just say hello but we don’t chat, going to the airport, checking in, getting on the plane, getting out, you know, four hours later or whatever in Auckland, checking into my airport. The whole thing, I had, I’m getting a bit of feedback. Are you getting that as well, Simon? no. No. You’re good, yeah.

Simon Waller (06:27.178)

you

Simon Waller (06:32.419)

No, no, I’m good. Yeah.

Yamini (06:44.35)

I had just zero to minimal human contact. So even the immigration check in everything had just been smoothed out completely. So I just could, and you know, apart from just being greeted on the plane, sitting down, besides those basic minimal interventions. And when I arrived in Auckland and I checked into my hotel room, I just felt really sad.

Simon Waller (06:49.122)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (06:57.7)

It was basic minimal interventions. And when I arrived in Auckland, I checked into the mountain road, I just felt really sad. Yeah. Let’s pause that because I think that’s part of the conversation I think we’re going to have about this scenario. But just coming back to this concept, yeah, we have been told, especially from a business context, this idea that everything needs to be frictionless. And as you said, there’s a kind of a movement

Yamini (07:08.532)

Life.

Simon Waller (07:27.972)

that is, that is actually going, no, actually, what, what hap, what are we losing as a result of friction? What would we do to bring this friction back into our lives in a very intentional way? If it, if not a very selective way, right. And, and I think I, I, wrote an article, I may be in the last 12 months. It’s come up a couple of times, my own stuff, I told this idea of judicious friction. So the idea of like, how do we use friction as smart way? And I’ve talked about it through the lens of a business context.

Yamini (07:50.646)

Mm.

Simon Waller (07:56.885)

about how do we kind of promote better behaviors by making difficult or challenging behaviors harder. But I hadn’t come across this concept of friction maxing until you shared this scenario. So what I love though is that we’re taking a, you know, so on one hand you have an underlying concept that is probably the premise is relatively well understood. It’s around this concept of character building. We have this 2026 interpretation of that, this idea of friction maxing.

But then now we’re going to project that into the future quite a long way. And we’re going to see how this may play out if, if, as this kind of trend or concept evolves. Yeah. So when we kind of talk about that point, the future, how far into the future we go in today. So we’re going 50 years into the future. is there any apart from that’s a very neat round number was any significance in terms of choosing that?

Yamini (08:29.217)

Thank you.

Yamini (08:34.315)

Yes.

Yamini (08:39.169)

Yeah.

Yamini (08:43.117)

2076.

Simon Waller (08:56.117)

that point in the future.

Yamini (08:57.685)

I think I just went 50 years, but also when I chatted with you, we thought, could be possible by then.

Simon Waller (09:03.231)

Yeah. And I think this is interesting when we kind of choose these at 50 years, we can actually imagine things that are distinctly different than they are today. Whereas often, especially when you talk about things like cultural change, which can happen quite slowly, do we really imagine that the center of culture within, you know, a group of people within society within Australia, you know, 10 years from now, can we imagine to be distinctly different and we might find tweaks to it or certain social, like certain belief systems that shift.

Yamini (09:11.917)

community.

Yamini (09:27.245)

Mm.

Simon Waller (09:33.313)

Um, especially within the political field, but we don’t see wholesale change. And I think that was, yeah, like, yeah, but I think 50 years, uh, given the right kind of, um, you know, external influences, we could have it in a very different society 50 years from now. Yeah. Okay. All right. So we are going to be talking about the future of the future of friction set in 2076. Um, I’m going to throw the microphone to you is the stage is all yours. Please tell us Yarmony about the future.

Yamini (09:47.799)

Yeah, imagine. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yamini (10:01.591)

Wonderful. Thank you. Thanks, Simon. X waited for the applause to finish. Not real applause, obviously. Real applause had been phased out years ago after the Emotional Safety Commission found it created unhelpful variation in performer self-worth. Now, audiences just tapped appreciation into their wrist nodes, and the speaker received a clean, aggregated warmth score. Today, X had scored 9.

Simon Waller (10:02.825)

of friction.

Simon Waller (10:13.887)

should seek permission to be treated under full-fledged variation.

Yamini (10:31.219)

Seven. X nodded at the green screen. On the other side of the world, her avatar was still smiling, still glowing, still accepting holographic handshakes from thousands of delegates who’d paid premium rates.

Simon Waller (10:41.861)

I think I had cheeks.

Yamini (10:49.257)

X turned off her screen. She’d not left her apartment in 91 days. This was normal, sensible even. By 2076, human beings had finally admitted what everyone had always known for a long time. Other humans were the main source of friction. Humans forgot things, misread tone, took offense, smell strange, ask follow-up questions. 2076.

Simon Waller (10:57.015)

Since

Yamini (11:18.847)

was the year the world was finally friction free, smooth as silk. Names had been the first to go. Too much admin, too many variations, Sarah with an H, Sarah without an H. Once memorably, Sarah written as Uttara on a coffee cup. Nobody could explain it, but everybody agreed on that beautiful energy. Siobhan. Siobhan alone had cost an estimated 4.8 million pronunciation incidents.

Simon Waller (11:25.15)

Apes have been the first to watch out for them to be very careful with Sarah. her age, Sarah had a change of perspective. She needed a beautiful energy. She bought a most estimated 8 million compensation incidents with the U.S. identity and identification act.

Yamini (11:48.012)

before the Universal Identity Simplification Act. Now everyone was identified by a biometric signature. Clean, accurate, no awkward, sorry, how do you say that again? Still in private, x-sometimes-missed names. You know, the offering, the correction, the tiny smile when someone finally got it right.

Simon Waller (12:03.471)

Sometimes, this day is so offering, the fun means smile when someone finally got it right.

Yamini (12:13.451)

Her AI wall blinked. You have completed 91 consecutive days without voluntary human contact. Urgent wellness intervention recommended. Exide not.

Simon Waller (12:13.915)

But he I have completed. Intervention recommended. Deficiency. The research was.

Yamini (12:27.319)

Friction deficiency has been linked to emotional thinning, conversational atrophy, and meaning fatigue. Would you like to order friction? The research was irrefutable. Humans needed friction. Not constant suffering, obviously. Not like the dark old days of the 2000s. The early trials had been a public relations catastrophe. But now, small regular doses of difficulty had been shown to improve.

Simon Waller (12:46.572)

The early trials in a public relations catastrophe allowed for significant increase in the difficulty of each of projects. The results of the two are more objective than the results of the particular messy humerus. That’s it for 99 days without any friction. Around 100 days to begin compulsory.

Yamini (12:56.983)

Creativity, resilience, humor, moral judgment, and what the wellness authority called messy humanness. A person could go 99 days without any friction, but on the 100th day, friction became compulsory. And no one knew what they could get. A flat battery, a wrong address, a neighbor at the door, public transport, in extreme cases, a printer.

Exit never pushed it this far before. Bearer to choose, she thought, and the menu arrived. The menu gave her three choices. You could order Friction in three sizes. Micro-Fiction, Nostalgia-Fiction, or Mega-Friction. Micro-Fiction, again, gave you more sub-choices. You could choose Happy, Surprise Me, or Sad. Hardly anyone chose Sad.

Simon Waller (13:35.147)

You could only think of three sizes. Microfiction?

Nostalgia fiction, I’m a rich man. I can fiction and be a king for some reason. She was happy, surprised, sad. Hardly anyone else needed any sadness. Since I had been eradicated in 2013, badly it’s It’s and it explodes.

Yamini (13:55.84)

No one needed more sadness. Ever since friction had been fully eradicated in 2050, humanity had become instantly sad.

Not the theatrical kind Exxon’s social media archives where humans cried in cars and announced they were done with drama while actively creating more of it. This was quieter, lonelier. Everyone had it. The Ministry said sadness was just part of the human condition now, like breathing. Exxon’s friend, because you couldn’t have names, sometimes the sound was acceptable. So Exxon’s friend worked on the friction maxing user experience team and had tried everything. Once he tried to spend a day without AI and it lasted 13 seconds before sobbing into a rotary phone. Another time, because he’d ordered mega fiction, he was kidnapped from his own apartment in broad daylight and held in a cave for 24 hours. He described it as transformational bliss. In a post that received six million empathy.

Simon Waller (14:40.505)

What do think? So the idea of micro fiction.

Yamini (15:05.561)

X hovered over the idea of micro fiction. She knew mega fiction was not for the faint-hearted. It was 24 hours, no bailout, full waiver. Nostalgia fiction was nice chaos. You could get a rotary phone, a paper map, delayed trains, manual cars, unscripted small talk.

Simon Waller (15:10.393)

She knew her addiction was often to be counted. She her addiction was was often was was was was was was often She knew knew her was often to addiction often She her addiction counted. She knew addiction counted. She knew her counted. She She knew her often to be addiction was often addiction She knew her addiction often counted.

Yamini (15:29.663)

She looked again at micro. Happy sometimes gave you a compliment from a stranger. Surprised me, but involved a delayed delivery. No one wants that. Sad had once sent someone an old voicemail from their dead mother. And sad was now under review. selected nostalgia. Please choose your preferred intensity. Human, X said. The system paused. Human is no longer a supported category. Replace with human-like.

Simon Waller (15:38.496)

So, but it’s a modern.

Yamini (15:59.619)

Then, from somewhere beyond the walls of her silent apartment, she heard a sound. A knock. Not a notification, a tone, a calibrated audio cue. A knock. Three uneven taps.

She stood very still. Nostalgia fiction has commenced. Your selected experience includes one unscripted human encounter, duration unknown, emotional outcome not guaranteed, failure to engage will result in automatic upgrade to mega-friction, a cancellation fee applies. Something moved inside her chest. She almost asked AI to identify it. That’s what people did now.

But then she stopped herself. Only that morning she watched a 2025 archival video in which a woman with very large earrings said humans used to do something called sitting with the feeling. X thought it was very unhygienic. It sounded unhygienic. But now she stood there letting the feeling move through her. She searched for the word. Anticipation? Hope?

Simon Waller (16:46.615)

She started to sound a bitch. She watched a 25 minute long video. She was very hard-working. Said, you must use to do something weird. Sitting with the family. She said, it’s very hard on hygiene. Sounded out hygiene. Now she’s stood. Delicately. Pulled through her. Such a…

Yamini (17:16.718)

There was another word people had used in the old archives. It’s a small word, ridiculous really. Happiness. And for the first time in 91 days, smiled and walked across the room to open the door.

Simon Waller (17:19.217)

I used to be a dark eye. It’s a small eye. I think it was really. I had it the first time.

Simon Waller (17:36.949)

Oh, so good. As I said to you before, like when I invited you on, was so excited to see what you would write, given your, you know, your background in storytelling. And I had forgotten, because it’s been a while since I’ve seen you on a stage, I’d forgotten how beautiful you are at delivery. You know, like I think that, you know, when you lean into it like you did there.

Yamini (17:56.896)

thank you.

Simon Waller (18:03.887)

And you, know, the sound effects and the, yeah, the inclination, the intonation and everything like that. was so beautifully delivered. Thank you so much. That was, and I, so when I first read this, I don’t know, maybe you mentioned this on the phone the other day. My favorite author of all time is Ben Elton. So Ben Elton was famous for writing the young ones, Blackadder.

Yamini (18:09.23)

Thank you.

Yamini (18:25.048)

Mmm.

Yamini (18:28.78)

Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Waller (18:31.24)

he wrote the musical queen, like he’s done something like incredible stuff. Yeah. But he he’s written his bunch of his, his novels, which often kind of lean into this very almost like a, they take what we’ve seen in the moment to its illogical conclusion. And they often have a very satirical aspect of them. So stories like Stark, inconceivable, this other Eden, gridlock all goes, yeah, we see this in there. And what happens if we just.

Yamini (18:35.246)

He’s prolific. He’s got a whole body of work.

Simon Waller (19:00.189)

it out a little bit further into the future. And I got, when I read this and hearing you read it as well, like that was the vibes that I immediately picked up. It was almost like I was reading a Ben Elton short story.

Yamini (19:12.386)

Yay, that’s a huge compliment. I’m a huge Ben Elton fan. I’ve got all his books on my Kindle as well. And I was reading in gridlock after we spoke, so yeah.

Simon Waller (19:17.169)

Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got to review that. I it like I reckon was the first one I read. I read I think I read that back would have been in the 1990s. So it’s actually it is time like I don’t you know how like music you just you can listen to it over and over again. Whereas it feels like films you can watch regularly and then books it feels like you read even less regularly again. Does that is that the same for you and me or is that? Yeah.

Yamini (19:43.318)

Yeah, similar. And sometimes you go back to an old book, but it hasn’t aged well or yeah, or you remember it differently, especially a childhood book or yeah.

Simon Waller (19:50.332)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (19:54.514)

So tell us just, we’re going to obviously do a bit of a deep dive into this, but I’m curious, you know, someone who is a writer, you’ve, you’ve obviously done a bunch of research around this topic. Obviously piqued an interest in you. First of all, tell us, talk us through from having your interest piqued, been invited to, to do this exercise and write a scenario through to this. Like how, how, how do you go about doing something like this?

Yamini (19:57.774)

I love you so much.

Yamini (20:06.935)

Yeah.

Yamini (20:18.062)

No.

Yamini (20:24.734)

I just, you always think, what if you strip, push everything out to the extreme edge? And, you know, just so many trends inform this, like how the wellness industry is always trying to sell us wellness. So they take all the friction out, then they’re trying to sell it back to us in these acceptable doses. So what that would look like. And also I was reading, there’s this Ben Stevens, I forget his name, but there’s this, you know, one of these tech bro billionaires.

Simon Waller (20:25.026)

I just…

Thank you.

Simon Waller (20:49.361)

Steve.

Yamini (20:53.656)

who’s on a quest for immortality. He’s got this whole protocol. What’s his? I forget his name. Sorry.

Simon Waller (20:55.729)

Yeah, yeah, but like, it’s like the, you know, trying to create like, this idea of living forever. There’s a be right, there’s a term for it as well, like

Yamini (21:09.106)

Correct, correct. Yeah, yeah. So then I’m thinking… And isn’t that, isn’t death the ultimate friction? Like, you know, no one wants to like go. So I thought, why don’t we look that out? So in this scenario, humans live forever, this 2076, because we’ve taken all friction out. We’ve all become immortal. But then it raises really interesting questions like…

Simon Waller (21:12.409)

It’s like hypermiling for the body or something.

Simon Waller (21:18.806)

the ultimate friction.

Yeah.

Simon Waller (21:31.088)

Mm-hmm.

Yamini (21:35.087)

What will people do for jobs? How will we all live? So then you have to think, okay, then you’ve got to have universal basic income. But people still need purpose and meaning, especially if you’re not allowed. Our contact with other humans is very minimised because humans are the biggest form of friction. And then I was talking to a friend with this whole idea of friction, and she said, oh, family is the biggest source of friction. And we were laughing and we were saying we could almost interchange the word family and friction sometimes. They can be like interchangeable.

Simon Waller (21:38.02)

Yeah. Yeah.

When you put the when one of the notes I made here around the mega friction and what would the 24 hours like in laws in laws come and stay for 24 hours.

Yamini (22:11.342)

So you already, everyone has that personal experience, right?

Simon Waller (22:16.589)

Yeah. Well, the irony of it is my in-laws do actually come and stay for 24 hours regularly at the moment. it’s only my mom’s, my, my wife’s mom hasn’t been well. And so, she often comes and stays with us and stuff. And to be honest, I don’t think, funnily enough, I say the in-laws cause that’s the joke, but weirdly the friction for my wife in that situation is way higher than it is for me. You know, like, yeah.

Yamini (22:35.629)

with.

Yamini (22:40.878)

It’s a very interesting family dynamic.

Simon Waller (22:44.526)

So I don’t know what you’re reading into that. But I do think that idea, that’s, think definitely picked that up. I think, you know, just from a, just from a perspective of the storytelling itself, I think that it, the fact that it’s very multifaceted, although there was a core premise, which is around this concept of friction or the reduction in friction, the fact that you bring into it these other kind of related threads.

Yamini (23:01.196)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yamini (23:11.778)

Yes.

Simon Waller (23:12.429)

Uh, think it adds a richness to it and a believability to it. Cause he goes like, yeah, I could see how that would impact the way that we, um, um, you know, the way that we, about human names, for instance, or these different types of, uh, you know, the AI wall that blinks at you and all these types of it. That’s like, oh, it’s not just this one idea. It’s almost like you’ve built a world. And I actually found myself a few times when I was trying to, when I was preparing for this conversation and trying to.

Yamini (23:23.544)

Go. Show.

Simon Waller (23:42.828)

Imagine this. actually found myself in this world. I found myself as x in her apartment. I imagined this idea that, you might’ve like walked out into the hallway a few times, but you would never have seen anybody because everybody else was also in their apartment. And you went out onto the street and there was a bunch of drones and delivery things going around. You don’t really see anyone like, and even the

Yamini (23:46.498)

Yeah. lovely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Yamini (24:02.105)

That’s right.

Yamini (24:06.767)

You never see anyone, you’re right.

Simon Waller (24:11.296)

The sweets would have, the streets would have been swept, you know, by robots. And then, and it actually took me to this place of like, you know, like the drop in. Yes. Right. And we used to do, we’re growing up in the nineties or whatever, like you could rely on getting people on the phone. And if you were just in the neighborhood of someone you knew, you just drop in just in case they were home. Right. And now you definitely like, it’s almost the idea of doing the drop in without.

Yamini (24:13.647)

Yeah.

Yamini (24:21.028)

Yes.

Yamini (24:25.699)

Yeah.

Yamini (24:34.425)

Yes. Sure, sure.

Simon Waller (24:40.979)

And the idea.

Yamini (24:41.251)

my God, finding a date that we both are available, like at the same time and place is so hard, you know, finding a time.

Simon Waller (24:45.204)

Yeah.

But I can’t drop in without phoning. can’t phone without texting you first. It’s like, I’m going to text the phone and phone to drop in. it’s like, it feels like this is what it brought up for me, this world. And again, I felt like there was a, yeah, I did feel a sadness around that.

Yamini (24:51.252)

Yes, I can’t. It’s crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You too.

Yamini (25:04.899)

Yeah. And you know this idea of drop in, our kids may not be able to relate to it because it’s not their sort of… And people used to always tell you, just drop in if you’re in the neighborhood. And now we don’t even say that because we know, you know, it’s not going to happen or what are the chances or yeah, it just feels, it just, it doesn’t feel right anymore, you know? Yeah.

Simon Waller (25:11.285)

Yeah.

So yeah, it just feels.

Simon Waller (25:24.871)

And do you, what do think that he is like? mean, do you think Al, honestly, if, if say we’re, you know, we finished the podcast recording, obviously because you’re busy right now, but sometimes this afternoon you’re at home and a knock at the door and a friend just turns up. How would you feel about that? Do you think?

Yamini (25:40.144)

Yeah. Quite excited, but also like you just want everything to be so perfect, right? You don’t want to be like having a bad hair day or like how’s messy, but that’s just part of friction, isn’t it? We’re just going to accept each other more and just be happy to see people more. So.

Simon Waller (25:46.322)

side.

everything.

Simon Waller (25:57.511)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (26:01.578)

Yeah, I’m just going to wonder where the feeling comes from. And I do think it’s probably, do you reckon maybe like the, like the, the filtering phone calls is the gateway, like almost like the gateway to therefore not thinking that we can drop in on people. Cause you know, like I sometimes we, once we get so many phone calls and we get bombarded with things every now and then we even have a good friend. It’s like, ah, it’s not now, you know, I’ll call them back in an hour or so, but it’s not now, you know,

Yamini (26:16.024)

Yeah.

Yamini (26:24.779)

Yeah.

Yamini (26:30.125)

your energy sort of depleted.

Simon Waller (26:32.509)

Yeah, all of us. I kind of on one hand, rile against the fact that we don’t, don’t do the drop in. And yet 100 % I’ve had that experience of a friend calling and just going, it’s not now.

Yamini (26:38.095)

Yeah.

Yamini (26:44.239)

Mmm.

Hahaha

Simon Waller (26:49.032)

And maybe it’s part of this idea that, well, because I’ve got a phone and you’ve got a phone, Yarmony. And so if you call me and it wasn’t now, and I called you in an hour and it wasn’t now for you, well, then you can just call me again. Like the effort required to go backwards and forwards isn’t high and eventually it’ll click. Right. But only both of us willing to do it when the energy’s right. But the stars align.

Yamini (26:58.189)

Mm-mm. Mm.

Yamini (27:04.367)

Four tag, yeah.

Yamini (27:08.579)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yamini (27:13.839)

Yeah, the stars align.

Simon Waller (27:18.481)

But then we take that same premise and then we take it to an environment, as you said, where the drop-ins like, well, I’m still like, you I live down on the Mointon Peninsula. Like my friends aren’t around a lot. they don’t happen to be in the neighborhood very often. I’d actually like them to drop in, but they don’t because I think we’re taking the experience that we have in one domain and we’re applying it to another and it’s going like, we shouldn’t just do that without calling or texting or, you know, having a written invitation.

Yamini (27:32.601)

Yes.

Yamini (27:38.563)

Yeah.

Yamini (27:44.913)

And we don’t want to take a risk in our relationships. We don’t want to inconvenience our friends by dropping in on an hour and stuff, by ringing them. So we might be a little bit too tender around these things, whereas it’s worth poking the bear sometimes and say, you know what, I’m going to drop in. Drop in. Maybe we can bring it back. There can be the ultimate friction max when people drop in unexpectedly.

Simon Waller (27:48.539)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (28:03.707)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (28:10.747)

Yeah, yeah.

Yamini (28:11.408)

can become like a wellness thing and isn’t it the ultimate wellness thing? Like I went to the gym the other day and you know just dragging myself you know how some days are dry and my friend had just come back from I didn’t know she was back from like six weeks or a long time away overseas and I was so happy to see her. Just that unexpected thrill of seeing someone you like and you know so I gave her a big hug and she’s like you look amazing I’m like you look amazing it was just so wonderful and I expected so that’s the sort of friction I want more of in my life.

Simon Waller (28:22.042)

Six weeks, long time away overseas. big, big to see her. Yeah. That I expected.

Simon Waller (28:39.694)

Yeah

Yamini (28:39.758)

You know, yeah, yeah. So this dropping in would be that, wouldn’t it be? It’s that sort of energy, yeah.

Simon Waller (28:45.31)

Yeah, I read, you shared with me some of the research that you did going into this and some of the examples around kind of friction maxing out. And some of them, like, it’s, there’s this kind of, I find this almost like a tension in it, right? On one hand, they’re stated as being these quite significant things, right? And yet if you read the list, they’re fairly insignificant. It’s like,

Yamini (28:49.776)

Mm.

Yamini (29:07.181)

Okay.

Yamini (29:12.801)

Hahaha

Simon Waller (29:14.551)

I didn’t clean the house and someone came around, you know, like, or yeah, like I went to the grocer and I didn’t get my stuff just delivered to me. Like I, I turned off Google maps, like, you got to like, on one hand, it feels like almost a parody, right? That, that, that is, that is maxing friction. Like that’s not just like, this is as big as friction as I can imagine.

Yamini (29:16.88)

Get a life, I know it.

Yamini (29:25.84)

Yeah.

Yamini (29:34.232)

Yeah, yeah.

Yamini (29:39.246)

Yeah.

Yamini (29:43.897)

I can handle and it also reveals our level of privilege because so much of the world is already living in hard circumstances and living with maximum friction. This is sort of what I’d call turn off turn on friction, the privilege of it.

Simon Waller (29:44.224)

Yeah.

100%.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. If it all gets too much, we can always stop it again as well. Yeah.

Yamini (30:04.112)

Correct, correct. Yeah, yeah. And they were recommending, you know, strike up a conversation with a stranger, browse in a bookstore, walk to pick up dinner. All of these are small, you know, but it’s a starting point as well.

Simon Waller (30:10.862)

to pick up dates.

Simon Waller (30:17.122)

Hmm. But I think there’s a risk, you know, that if that’s friction maxing, we don’t just see it as a starting point, we see it as being the end game. You know, like, it’s like, cool, I did friction tick, you know, like

Yamini (30:24.814)

Yeah.

Yamini (30:29.772)

I take it of my wellness, along with my journaling and hydrating. I take it of my child.

Simon Waller (30:33.923)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don’t know if I need more character. I mean, I’m gonna build a bit of character, but not too much. I’ve got a fair bit already, if I just be honest with you, you know.

Yamini (30:41.968)

 can never have too much character. I must admit I didn’t realise until I came across this term that I was already… this idea of talking to a stranger is quite at the edge of that friction maxing because all of us we fear, you know, the rejection, the awkwardness, the whole, you know, the whole social construct around it, I would say. But about a year ago, I decided I would start telling… I would often see someone with a fabulous pair of shoes or, you know…

Simon Waller (30:51.478)

it.

Yamini (31:10.32)

just really cool sunglasses and I’d be like, wow, I really like that. And I wouldn’t say anything and the moment passes. So these things are like, you’re ephemeral. Either you do it then or it’s gone. And so decided I would just tell people and I called it giving them a love bomb and they just light up like 99%. I’ve never had anyone go, oh, you know, they’re all just so happy. go.

Simon Waller (31:10.818)

usually wearing sunglasses and I have be like, wow, I’m like that. I don’t have to fast. I sit down like you if you went by, you’d be there, it’s gone. So it’s kind of a still.

Simon Waller (31:28.738)

This light up is 99 % of the battery.

Yamini (31:35.152)

I really wasn’t sure, I really liked the tour, my grandmother gave it to me or whatever, you know. And it’s just delightful. And that’s it. I’m not wanting any more than that from them or them from me. Like we’re not going to exchange numbers or become friends. But this idea of a love bomb just made that whole, it’s a little bit of friction maxing, but it’s positive friction maxing, isn’t it?

Simon Waller (31:35.87)

Yeah. Yeah. But again, I exists on like, it speaks to something that we all yearn for as well.

Like we yearn for acknowledgement and to be seen, right? And so that’s, and I kind of, this is one thing I, I couldn’t quite.

Yamini (32:08.154)

to be seen.

Simon Waller (32:17.121)

couldn’t work it out. And maybe if we both like maybe collectively we can do a better job than I could do myself. Some of these friction maxing things relate to something that’s like a deeper human need.

Uh, and I think some of the ones even around kind of the concept of, know, like, I think when you’re, what you’re talking about there is it’s not, there’s an act of it that’s related to you, which is around, gosh, this feels hard, but it relates to something that’s bigger than us around this need to be seen, our sense of connection and belonging around us. And some of these other ones around food, you know, for instance, like it’s not like the ability to cook nutritious food is.

Yamini (32:48.09)

Yes.

Yamini (32:57.902)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (33:05.91)

Like when we kind of go the frictionless option, we get the takeaways or the Uber eats or like we’re actually, there’s a decline. And then other things that’s been feel very kind of arbitrary. You know, like they’re just doing it so I could do it. we. Yeah.

Yamini (33:08.784)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yamini (33:17.166)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There’s a scale in these things, isn’t there? There’s a minor right to the major. But I think the underlying thread with friction-maxxing is not so much doing things that make you uncomfortable, but also in seeking the other. I think we’re trying to seek that connection. It’s a move away from loneliness and isolation. And Simon, this is why we’ve seen this massive explosion in events like Tough Mudder and Spartan. And on the weekend, I went to see my friends.

Simon Waller (33:30.591)

Thanks.

Yamini (33:49.105)

in the ultra, which is, I think it was Melbourne backyard race, like last man standing where everyone runs 6.1 kilometers and every hour you run 6.1 kilometers and whoever lasts the longest, I think the person who won did for 73 hours wins. So it’s a very tough race. And last year when my friends went to it, there were only 60 participants. And this year when they went, there were over 200 participants.

Simon Waller (33:54.591)

Thank you.

Simon Waller (34:04.075)

Wow.

Yamini (34:16.068)

So was, you you couldn’t just see the size of it. So people are looking for those experiences, but when you actually go there, so we went to see them and support them on Sunday, it’s like a festival. Everyone’s got tents up, there’s music, the start of every lap, everyone’s cheering you on, your friends and family are there, there’s food. So like all the people in the event are totally friction maxing. Like we’re doing something that we’d never do in real life, but they dance around it back. And they all built a community, like they all know the Ultra.

Simon Waller (34:25.585)

There’s music.

Simon Waller (34:35.197)

I that would be the interesting thing. I that would be the most interesting thing. think would be interesting thing. The other option would be to share ice bags and give you ice.

Yamini (34:44.784)

people, you know, they were all helping each other, everyone was sharing ice packs and giving advice. So I think what you’re saying is there’s a scale. There’s some things I can do alone. I’m looking for tiny bits of friction maxing, like walking down and getting dinner or whatever. But even when I walk down to get dinner, I’m connecting with the person who’s giving me my dinner.

Simon Waller (35:00.896)

Yeah, so I don’t think it’s about, it’s, it’s, it’s some things we just do them because like they’re, they’re, but they’re arbitrary. Um, but they don’t actually add a life skill to us. That’s actually meaningful to us. It’s like, I just did something that was hard to do something that felt hard. Whereas others feel like.

Yamini (35:13.402)

Yeah.

Yamini (35:17.21)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (35:23.804)

leaning back into something that’s bigger than us. Being more human, think, and connectors are like a lot of stuff you talked about, there’s a connectedness. But I think also perhaps, you know, to a certain extent, our physical fitness and well-being is actually, you know, like I almost saw about this through the lens of, you know, like the Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, right, which I know is, you know, there’s the validity of it is questionable, but

Yamini (35:26.776)

and into being more human.

Yamini (35:43.439)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (35:49.904)

the premise of it, this idea that we have certain basic needs that we need to meet. And only after those needs have been met, we can actually start talking about higher order needs, whether or not like what I felt in this world that you’ve described is all these, so many of our needs have been met. And we got to the pinnacle of this things. And instead of doing something meaningful with our lives, we just ended up doing scrolling social media. Right. And then in that moment, there’s a whole bunch of people sitting on couches all over the world going, look at themselves going like,

Yamini (35:57.573)

Yeah.

Yamini (36:04.305)

Yeah.

Yamini (36:11.889)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (36:19.856)

What am I doing? Like, why am I doing this? Let’s go out and run six kilometers every hour and see what happens. know, like, so people are potentially finding, I just need something bigger than this. Yeah. Gets me back in touch with myself.

Yamini (36:20.653)

What do I do with that? Yeah. Yeah.

Yamini (36:31.417)

Yeah, it’s something that gets me back in touch with myself. And one of the ways to do that is through this physicality of running or, you know, other people or, and some of these like, you know, the cold shower and stuff like that is friction maxing again, but it’s, it’s very much chasing a wellness metric, you know, whereas others may not be so much about getting that wellness metric. It may be just about just being more human, leaning into the messy bits of life, you know? Yeah.

Simon Waller (36:37.274)

you buddy you

Simon Waller (36:55.609)

Yeah. And maybe when the messy bits is the messy bits shouldn’t be measured or can’t be measured, you know, and it’s almost by the very act of measuring it, we try to put order around it. And we’ve actually taken away the messiness that was there in the first place. Can I share one thing that I struggle with? so first of all, to acknowledge the nature of this exercise is you just get to describe a future. You’re not forced to go through the internal logic of

Yamini (37:01.606)

Correct.

Yamini (37:08.346)

Yeah, yeah.

Yamini (37:17.168)

Yeah.

Correct, correct.

Yamini (37:24.001)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (37:25.114)

Tell me the steps that go from where we are now that take us to this place. Though you do point out some interesting little kind of milestones along the way where things change. But one example that I’ve kind of used in my own work quite a lot is the shift that we have around things like music. So I use the example back in the sixties, if you want to know if someone was a Rolling Stones fan, it’s like, just go to their record collection. And if they’ve got half a dozen Rolling Stones records, if they had a half a dozen back in the sixties, let’s say the seventies, if you had half a dozen Rolling Stones records, like, wow, you’re a fan.

Yamini (37:32.049)

Right.

Yamini (37:40.613)

Yes.

Simon Waller (37:54.65)

Right. And there’s a certain level of effort that went into collecting that many records. You know, we had less disposable income. You had to go like the record shop. You can’t give them a mail order, et cetera, et cetera. And now you go like, if someone has a Rolling Stones records, means nothing because we all have every record because we have Spotify or, you know, Apple music or whatever. And so now the only real question of whether or not you’re a Rolling Stones fan is have you been to the concert and how many times have you been? Like if you haven’t been three times.

Yamini (38:22.443)

And.

Simon Waller (38:24.248)

like, are you really a fan? Cause you know, probably everyone like goes, I should go to a Rolling Stones concert just because it’s the Stones, right? So going once, yeah, once doesn’t even count. So many people would have gone once, but as said, as a real fan, you’ve gone three times. So I’ve kind of used this and I think there is a movement at the moment as well towards

Yamini (38:32.593)

Even once in your lifetime, yeah.

Hmm.

Simon Waller (38:50.913)

You know, these kind of shared experiences, human experiences that we get in concerts, even though we’re surrounded by smelly people. So in one hand we have this thing going on and then in this scenario, you paint 50 years from now, you know, we kind of have somehow this kind of reaction against being around other people because of that messiness that’s associated with it. Can you see like how do those things maybe play out? Like what is it that happens? Do you think?

Yamini (38:58.981)

Yes.

Yamini (39:13.659)

Yeah.

Yamini (39:17.285)

the contradiction we have.

Simon Waller (39:20.425)

somewhere 25 to 30 years from now where things like constant suddenly go, you know, they’re on the nose, so to speak.

Yamini (39:27.429)

Yeah, A couple of things inform my scenario. The first, I was listening on the radio and they were talking about feral fans at an event and like an event had to be like almost cancelled. This was just in Melbourne yesterday and stuff like that. But I think they’re allowing it. This sort of, the whole world is getting slightly unhinged. There’s a breakdown in sort of public order. There are parents and soccer matches punching up each other. There’s just rise in violence and this breakdown in civility.

Simon Waller (39:56.246)

Mmm.

Yamini (39:56.325)

So someone said, just don’t know how to be disagreeable anymore, how to have discourse, healthy discourse with each other. We’ve all just got so polarized. So that’s sort of the sort of mega friction which just becomes unbearable for humans. So that was sort of one trend that informed me. The other was I always liked the idea of this universal basic income. So, you know, that would make all of this possible. But just also sometimes, Simon, we chase a utopian ideal.

Simon Waller (40:04.585)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (40:13.066)

The other.

Yamini (40:25.008)

We think it would be lovely to be in a friction free world. Imagine no traffic jams, no queues. But then we never think what is the dark side of that? Is that isolation, is that disconnection? So it’s almost like you can’t have, you know, it’s always got that dark, the shadow side.

Simon Waller (40:32.692)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (40:39.541)

Yeah. And I had Kath, our friend Kath. Yeah. And there was something that she shared in that about like her own experience of storytelling and both in her work, but as a journalist and a supporter of other writers. And she was, I had this kind of epiphany around how often we lean into the dystopian because that’s the only place. Because without that, we can’t get people to realise all the stuff we need to change. And yet, you know, in this

Yamini (40:43.066)

Yes, I saw the protest, yeah.

Yamini (41:02.108)

Correct.

Simon Waller (41:09.247)

you know, we can actually find in the utopian, we can also see the shadows.

Yamini (41:11.73)

Yeah. Yeah. The dystopian has light and the utopian has a shadow, right?

Simon Waller (41:18.868)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that that’s something that’s been really interesting for me because even in all the work I do, I’ve always kind of erred slightly towards a dystopian, but I’ve always enjoyed people finding the light in it. You know, it’s like you paint this picture and they go, oh God, is that possible? Like, yeah, that’s possible. And they’re like, oh, but imagine we did this and people find this kind of hope and stuff in it. And I kind of found that. So, yeah. And going back to that point about the events, that was actually announced around

Yamini (41:31.505)

Yes.

Simon Waller (41:48.563)

playing the FIFA World Cup in Federation Square in Melbourne and the state government said, we’re not going to show it live because of the feral fans. And there’s been a protest and yeah, yeah. And that’s now been overturned, which I think is great, but there’s another trend around that where increasingly, if you go to a concert, like it’s divided up into more and more sections and you’ve got, there’s the VIP section and then there’s the VIP VIP section. And then you’ve got

Yamini (41:50.31)

Yes.

Yeah. Correct. And even that language, know, feral sounds.

Simon Waller (42:17.489)

There’s like, that’s the standing room bit, which was the whole concert previously is now a segregated little fenced off bit. Everyone else has seated tickets or there’s family sections or there’s a no alcohol bit. And it’s like, we can’t even just do that. Well, yeah.

Yamini (42:31.142)

Yeah, yeah. Just those hierarchies, those divisions, that status signaling, it’s all in there, right? In that pool, yeah, yeah.

Simon Waller (42:37.937)

 also if I can find that experience that’s just slightly more customised to you, maybe you’ll also pay a few extra dollars for it. You know, it’s like, yeah, I got the alcohol free bid and was really great because it wasn’t even the feral fans there. know? Yeah.

Yamini (42:47.526)

Yeah.

Yamini (42:53.552)

Yes, we’re paying for the friction free experience, You don’t want feral fans, don’t want alcohol, you want sitting room, you want to be close to the stage.

Simon Waller (43:00.406)

Yeah. One thing that I actually meant to bring up earlier, because we’ll talk about the writing of this and, and, you know, I was complimenting you on, on the, the, this kind of multifaceted style of it. But there’s other thing, which I forget to mention, which I think it’s really worth raising is that in there is also some very personal things as well. And there is a story that you told me years ago about the coffee cup. And is this right?

Yamini (43:10.31)

with.

Yamini (43:19.686)

Yeah.

Yamini (43:25.894)

What is that? The coffee cup.

Simon Waller (43:28.357)

The, I think you’ve told me this story before about the name on the coffee cup thing, but it was your name. And I, and I, and I’m also one of those failed flawed human beings who can’t remember everything. forget things, right. But I do remember this and I, when, when you shared it in the scenario, it just triggered like, was like, it brought back this like half a memory. Tell me though about your own experience, like with the names and stuff like that. Cause obviously Yamini Nadu is not.

Yamini (43:42.256)

Yes, yes, yes.

Yamini (43:48.42)

I’m sorry.

Yamini (43:53.54)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (43:58.147)

Super common.

Yamini (43:59.109)

 common. It’s common. It’s combination India. It’s not that common anyway. Yamini. People find three. I think if you’ve got three syllables in your name, people find that hard. I always go Yamini like Harmony is my thing. And one time, I’m in I. And MC was introducing me and he was like, how do you pronounce your name? And I go Yamini like Harmony. And again, I went and maxed out. went Naidu like can do. Because Naidu can do is that family motto.

Simon Waller (44:07.833)

Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Waller (44:24.113)

Again, it was that flat.

Yamini (44:26.546)

Don’t you have a family motto? It’s obviously a thing, no. And he introduces me and says, ladies and gentlemen, welcome our next speaker, Harmony Can Do. I’ve got this whole thing about names and obviously when I go for coffee, I don’t like everyone. There’s a pressing queue of people behind you and the baristas are perfectionists, aren’t they? So they’re like, is that a Y, Renee? Is that a Q? Is that a name? I’m like, my coffee name is Angela.

Simon Waller (44:35.841)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (44:54.414)

I guess Simon Walker a lot.

Yamini (44:55.398)

Walker, yeah, totally, would get, but Simon, I’m sure they don’t get Simon wrong, do they? Yeah.

Simon Waller (45:19.15)

 a lot, which in the biggest scheme of things is pretty like, it’s literally like L and K next to each other in the alphabet. Like it’s, it’s almost you’ve mistyped it. Actually next to each other on a keyboard as well. So maybe they just keep mistyping it. I don’t know. Um, but I do think that that’s an interesting insight around, know, yeah, Yarmony having three syllables. And obviously within Australian culture, we would like to abbreviate that just to Yarms. Do you Yarm? You mean Yarm’s or Yarmode?

Yamini (45:26.674)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yamini (45:41.49)

 yams, yeah, yamo, yamo, yamo

Simon Waller (45:49.006)

you

For anyone who’s not in Australia listening to this, they’re very much a part of Australian culture where we love to shorten names and then like add an O or something weirdly on the end. So Simon often becomes Simon. Kidding. Yeah.

Yamini (46:03.782)

Yes.

Yamini (46:07.196)

you’re kidding. It’s like they flip the N and the O, Simon. Like, what was that? But also you’ve got a short name, like Brooke becomes Brookie. You’re like, what’s that? Yeah, it’s a very, what you’re saying is it’s a very sophisticated nuance thing, Simon. Non-Australians can’t just easily seize, grasp. You’re doing it instinctively.

Simon Waller (46:15.276)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, or on the end, yeah. But then you’d be like, yamane-ee, and that doesn’t really work.

Simon Waller (46:26.507)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (46:30.346)

Yeah, just shorten it once. But the standard rule is you shorten it to one syllable and add an O or an E. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yamini (46:36.016)

Yeah, that’s the thumb rule of thumb. Yeah. And if in doubt, ask Simo. What was it again? Simo, Simo.

Simon Waller (46:42.806)

See you!

Yeah. So the other thing I, yeah, I just want to cover it off because I made a note about it. I had remembered that story and I hadn’t, I hadn’t quite remembered exactly how you told it, but I think it’s a beautiful story. And this idea that, yeah, is like names are so messy. Like literally you’ve just come up with an extra one purely for copy lines.

Yamini (46:52.626)

you

Yamini (46:57.382)

it.

Yamini (47:02.022)

So, yeah, and I’ve got friends whose names are different on passports. You know, if your name is different in your paperwork, your life is hell. Yeah, just like, you can spend the rest of your life just sorting that out.

Simon Waller (47:08.38)

 Hey, so in this go this conversation though around, you know, there are, we have this realisation though that friction has an additive value. Like it builds character or you’re talking about the examples you give around kind of creativity and, and even like our perseverance and all these things come from it.

Yamini (47:26.162)

Kiss.

Yamini (47:37.426)

But also humor and belonging and intimacy. Love is always risky, isn’t it, Simon? And love is full of friction. Like after that initial honeymoon, hallmark card, period, it’s full of that. Yeah, yeah.

Simon Waller (47:41.194)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (47:45.546)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (47:52.24)

Yeah. And again, quite legitimately, I think when you look back on long-term relationships, or long-term friendships, you remember the hard things that you did together. Like they are the fact that you got through them is part of the validation of the power of the thing, you know? So I think there’s a really interesting aspect of that, which

can easily be lost in our pursuit of a frictionless environment.

Yamini (48:23.559)

And also when you fall in love, people will say, let’s travel with the other person, like book a trip and go somewhere and see if you make it through that because travel brings up all the friction and really tests us all.

Simon Waller (48:32.862)

Yeah, I had very good friend of mine recently, we caught up for a coffee and her kids are about to leave home. And so she’s actually booked a three month trip through Europe with her husband to find out how they’re to get on with our kids around. you know, for so long, kids become part of every conversation you have. Right. It’s like, what happens when we don’t have them to talk about? What are we going to do?

Yamini (48:40.797)

Yeah.

Yamini (48:46.205)

Wow.

Yeah, that’s it. Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Waller (48:59.754)

And she says, I need to find out. So we’re going to go three months by ourselves with our kids and just see what happens. Do we find things to talk about? But one thing I want to talk to you with this is that you frame this very much through what happens in our personal lives. And as you mentioned, part of your premise

Yamini (49:04.147)

The kid free Europe love test, right? I love it.

Yamini (49:19.57)

Yes.

Simon Waller (49:24.306)

Could even be that we’re the universal basic income, which means maybe people don’t like work, though this person acts as obviously a keynote speaker. so there’s, there’s some work that still exists in this world. I’m interested in our different approaches and beliefs around friction from a commercial context versus in a private life. So I feel like the lot of this messaging around friction free is, is a commercial thing, a business driven. Yeah.

Yamini (49:30.044)

Yeah.

Yamini (49:39.731)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yamini (49:52.615)

Yes.

Simon Waller (49:54.128)

I don’t think that the language outside of this concept of friction maxing, I don’t think we walk around our personal lives going, God, I wish there was less friction. We say things like, wish things weren’t so hard. God, that’s don’t have time for that. I’m just feeling burnt out. Like those kind of, the language is different, but the language around friction has a very commercial aspect.

Yamini (50:08.06)

Yes.

Yamini (50:17.201)

It does, yeah.

Simon Waller (50:18.79)

What had to give put much thought into what the friction is there. What is it? What does friction maxing look like in a commercial context? Or do you think in that world there’s like, no, no, no, we’re still trying to make everything friction free.

Yamini (50:30.523)

 they’re trying to be as friction-free as possible. And that’s what we pay premium for, which is what you described with the concert experience, isn’t it? So they’re monetising. So they would create friction because that allows them to charge a more premium. Friction only works if there’s friction-free to contrast. Friction-free only works if there’s friction to contrast it with.

Simon Waller (50:39.708)

Yes.

Simon Waller (50:45.682)

the friction happens because that allows the charge to be free. Friction only works if it’s friction free to contrast, friction free only works if it’s friction to contrast.

Yamini (50:57.075)

So it’s like the airlines, isn’t it? It’s like that boarding class one, you know, the platinum, how they get to board first and then the rest. it only works because other people aren’t allowed to board. So I’m sure they’d find a way of even monetizing friction. I haven’t thought deeply about it, but if anything can be monetized, commerce will find a way to monetise it.

Simon Waller (51:05.788)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (51:20.292)

Yeah, it’s almost like there’s a, there’s a hidden cost of it as well. I mentioned this to my daughter on the drive to school this morning. I said, I’m doing this episode, you know, what comes up for you. And she asked me to explain a bit about friction. I’m like, yeah, the idea of say Amazon, the idea that you just literally click two buttons and next thing something gets delivered. And she’s like, I can’t believe I got a pencil delivered for a dollar. And, but then she was also saying that she’d been reading recently around some of the other practices around Amazon.

Yamini (51:41.735)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (51:50.239)

that enable this frictionless experience for us. So when you return something, it just gets destroyed. Right? They don’t try and repackage it and resell it or anything like that. Or even if there’s excess stock, just, they don’t distribute it to needy people in the world. It’s just destroyed. there’s a hidden cost. There’s a massive hidden cost that allows this very privileged premium

Yamini (52:03.399)

Not for us. Yeah.

Yamini (52:12.081)

That’s the hidden cause.

Simon Waller (52:19.631)

friction free experience for some. And yet that has been enough to make Amazon one of the most valuable countries and companies in the world, selling a frictionless experience to a handful, but like a small subset of wealthy people around the world. just, but I said that that knock on impact and that cost is significant. I think that

Yamini (52:40.211)

And also when you think of that supply chain that makes this friction free, there’s massive friction at the other end of the supply chain for those people living in those circumstances. Maybe not even making basic income, working hideous hours, you know? Yeah.

Simon Waller (52:49.317)

Mmm

Simon Waller (52:53.636)

Yeah. And again, it’s, you know, I’ve had some of the same conversations around AI, people think AI and they see AI through their personal experience, not understanding that there is people in refugee camps, in developing nations being played minimal wages to basically label up all the content who are witnesses to people’s very private videos.

Yamini (53:08.883)

Yeah.

Yamini (53:16.977)

Yeah, content, correct.

Mm.

Simon Waller (53:21.699)

that’s been recorded with their meta glasses and being told, what are you seeing in this video? And they don’t understand that their frictionless experience is actually really just a process of outsourcing friction onto a whole bunch of other people. And often, as I said, people who are not in a position to necessarily question what they have been asked to do. And I wonder if people would have that same desire.

Yamini (53:24.135)

Yeah.

Mm-mm.

Simon Waller (53:49.165)

for the frictionless experience if they go no, no, no, it’s not really friction free. It’s just like friction shifting. Just move the friction onto somebody else.

Yamini (53:58.783)

Just exactly, passing it down the line, isn’t it? Because it’s unbearable for me. Imagine if you could do that with illness, with all the other bad things that happen in life. You could just hand it off to somebody else. You know, like we outsource, you’re saying I’m outsourcing my friction. Yeah.

Simon Waller (54:11.363)

Yeah. And I feel like that feels less comfortable. Yeah. And I think the fact that that feels uncomfortable is why companies, especially big tech companies do such a big job of trying to hide it. So they won’t have their own employees do that work. They’ll hire another company, then hire some subcontractors that does this. So there’s almost like we can pretend we don’t know about it in a way.

Yamini (54:17.916)

very uncomfortable.

Yamini (54:28.958)

Yes.

Simon Waller (54:41.441)

So I think there’s that, yeah, which I kind of go like, yeah, even in this utopian world, I wonder where, I wonder who actually is holding all the friction for us. Who’s paying the real price. Yeah. Yeah. And that causes us enormously pushing.

Yamini (54:51.166)

Who’s paying the real price, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah. And that causes us enormous emotional friction. The worst kind, isn’t it? Causes us such a mental upheaval and friction, which is really good because that’s the challenging, the provocative. Yeah.

Simon Waller (55:07.456)

Yeah. I also imagine in this world that there would be people like, you know, we have these extreme sports people. Like that do stuff that, you know, like they get sponsored by Red Bull and they jump off cliffs. And there was a guy a few years back who literally jumped out of a hot air balloon at the edge of space. You know, like you don’t remember this.

Yamini (55:20.116)

Mm.

Yamini (55:35.016)

That bigly, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Waller (55:38.22)

Yeah, there’s a guy, they put a hot air balloon right up into the highest of atmosphere and he parachuted from the edge of the atmosphere down to Earth, right? Fully sponsored by Red Bull. Imagine in this world, there are people who like are the equivalent of extreme sports people who, whether they hand out compliments randomly on the street or actually like there’s a daredevil aspect of this and perhaps even hold TV shows.

Yamini (55:47.442)

And then? Okay.

Yamini (56:00.189)

Mm-mm.

Yamini (56:03.965)

Mmm.

Simon Waller (56:07.548)

around it, you know, like whereby there’s, there is like people tuning in to witness these people who are willing to go to the grocery store.

Yamini (56:21.679)

But you know, yeah, we watch, there’s the Excel spreadsheet world championship, right? So we’re also watching. So like, that’s possible, anything’s possible. Like we’re all at home watching on these massive screens, someone go to take that briscoe. Yeah, go to a messy in-person grocery store. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Waller (56:26.578)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (56:37.862)

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, given the Kardashians, like we’ve already had TV about people hanging with their in-laws anyway. like, it’s like, this has been done. Yeah.

Yamini (56:44.852)

That’s been done, Simon. But what you are telling me is that humans were deeply interested in other humans. Even if they were pouring cereal into a bowl, we deeply, you we have this visceral need to see other humans and, you know, be with other humans.

Simon Waller (56:51.535)

Simon Waller (56:56.486)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (57:06.802)

When you like your own experience of writing this and research this, as I said, I saw some of your notes and I really appreciate the effort that you went into in the development of this. Like, and which again, a very friction full experience on a podcast, right? Like, you know, the standard come on a podcast thing is that, you just get to come on, sit in all of your expertise.

Yamini (57:26.196)

very full of friction.

Yamini (57:34.418)

Yes.

Simon Waller (57:37.502)

you know, from like do this kind of soft self promotion. Right. And then I go away and I do all the editing and all the rest of it. And you just kind of, and it is like the opposite. Right. So we don’t, we don’t position you at all. We don’t really talk about what you do except in parsing. I mean, right. And then you do all the work.

Yamini (57:40.85)

hahahaha

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. I love it.

Yeah.

You’re making me actually live in that world. You’re making me role model it live it. Immersive. You created an immersive experience for me.

Simon Waller (58:06.425)

Yeah.

But it has, and this is something interesting. when I, I’ve had the surprising feedback, like when I first started doing this, I used to feel this sense of around like, Oh, when you come to the show, would you, almost like, would you mind, is it okay to ask if you would do this? Is that all right? And can I help you at all? And then yet if I go, what’s the most common piece of feedback I get from guests is they get to the end and they go, thank you. You know, like.

Yamini (58:32.862)

Hmm?

Yamini (58:36.796)

Exactly my thing, yeah.

Simon Waller (58:39.128)

And I don’t know if it’s, maybe there’s like a secret sauce and there’s somewhere around choose the topic that matters to you. Talk about something that you care about. And then you just been given permission to go away and do the research and the thinking and that gives you then the clarity that almost you were always seeking or something like that.

Yamini (58:58.516)

You know what, Naiman, it’s based on the oldest principle in the world, which is do the work. The work is full of friction, it’s full of creativity, it’s full of all those messy things. And it’s not a shortcut, it’s not an easy hack, it’s not 10 prompts. And I think that’s what people enjoy. They enjoy actually doing the work. Yeah.

Simon Waller (59:03.962)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (59:13.691)

Yeah.

Yeah. Is there any reckon though, one thing I couldn’t quite come to the conclusion around is that a certain amount of friction is healthy for us. think we all agree it builds resilience and capability, but too much friction can be damaging. Right. So like it can, it can damage our confidence or actually physically impact us. And

Yamini (59:28.412)

Yes,

Of course, yeah.

Yamini (59:39.24)

Yeah, Yeah, debilitating, yeah, yeah.

Simon Waller (59:45.402)

I said one thing is like, there’s a, you know, like in any healthy system, it has to be the positive and negative feedback loops. And how do we know when too much friction is too much is kind of one thing that I kind of, but also, resilience breeds resilience, right? If you have a certain amount of resilience, then you have the capability to deal with more friction and that then ultimately contends to build your resilience, right?

Yamini (59:54.526)

Yeah.

Yamini (01:00:02.899)

Mm.

Yamini (01:00:09.077)

Mm-hmm.

Simon Waller (01:00:13.497)

And it actually took me all the way back to doing my master’s thesis, which was around kind of concepts of socio-ecological resilience theory and how you apply that to organisations. And there’s principles of resilience. And some of those resilience is that we need some obviously some fat in the system. Like we need to have some excess capability. Diversity and complexity actually add resilience because if one part of the system gets damaged, there’s other parts that are still healthy.

Yamini (01:00:20.816)

Yeah.

Yamini (01:00:33.129)

Yes.

Yamini (01:00:37.173)

They do.

Simon Waller (01:00:42.945)

this number of different principles. I was kind of trying to apply that to this and almost even apply it to the experience I see people have in the world right now. Whereas like, we just have no access capacity. without that capacity, concepts of more friction for the fun of it seem really challenging. so given that,

Yamini (01:00:47.061)

Mm.

Yamini (01:01:06.133)

Mmm.

Simon Waller (01:01:09.344)

On one hand, you’ve painted this world, is sort of utopian and future focused. And we have now, like we have the experience people are having now. And given the experience that people are having now, what do you think people can do like to tap into, like to tap into this? Like, again, I Friction Maxing is kind of like an example of what that might look like.

Yamini (01:01:19.061)

Mm.

Simon Waller (01:01:36.801)

but it has it, feels like there’s a shallowness to it. Is there something more? Are we missing something here? I think so.

Yamini (01:01:43.272)

I think so. what we need more of and the ultimate friction is to be kind. Be kind to people because we’re all going through messy stuff. Life is hard. know, since I’ve always liked chasing that wellness metric, making it about me, trying to work on something on myself. I think it’s more reaching out and being kind to other people. So when you’re stuck in traffic, someone cuts you off or…

Simon Waller (01:01:49.591)

Netflix.

Simon Waller (01:01:55.085)

stuff like this.

Yamini (01:02:11.253)

There’s an opportunity to be more civil, to be more polite, to be kind. Yeah, making space for other people. I think that’s going to really help us. That’ll be for me the ultimate friction maxim because it’s unexpected. So if you step out of your car, people are going to expect you to punch them up or whatever. But instead of responding with anger, you respond with kindness. What would that be like?

Simon Waller (01:02:12.727)

people.

Simon Waller (01:02:23.543)

Mmm, I hate this thing really.

Simon Waller (01:02:32.759)

I think there’s a lot of depth to this, what you’re saying, like almost more than we have time to explore within like this episode, but it brings up some other research. And again, I’m not an expert and I’m not a psychologist or something, but I know there’s research to say that when you are dealing with your own challenges, one of the best things to do is help someone with theirs. Like that’s actually by taking the energy and the attention away from ourselves, we open up like,

Yamini (01:02:54.345)

Yes.

Yamini (01:03:01.46)

No.

Simon Waller (01:03:02.216)

something else inside ourselves and I think something more primal in a sense about our connection with other people in community. And I do wonder if that’s actually, yeah, like if I go, I’m just so maxed out, I can’t help anybody, I’ve got nothing to give. It’s the very act of giving that gives you the capacity to do so.

Yamini (01:03:18.473)

That’s right. And so again, looking for other ways, the normal ways of recharging and always making it about me, me, more me and more purchases, more wellness, more this. Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Waller (01:03:24.582)

Mmm.

Simon Waller (01:03:28.15)

Yeah, so what if the frictions that you chose were intentionally externally focused, intentionally not self-serving? Yeah, I think that’s something very interesting to explore. I really like that idea. And it starts with just basically complimenting people on their outfits when you walk the streets.

Yamini (01:03:38.527)

Correct.

Yamini (01:03:48.981)

Yeah, and being really cool, not being weird and stockery about it.

Simon Waller (01:03:52.501)

It feels like it feels like it’s a line that you’ve ever crossed that line sometimes or you just

Yamini (01:03:58.183)

But don’t forget, it’s easier for me as a woman, I can compliment people, but I think it would be harder, say, for you Simon, to walk up. It could be harder, but it doesn’t have to be. Let’s make it easy for everyone. There’s this one.

Simon Waller (01:04:12.189)

Yeah, so the one that I find is so I love I love dancing and few times a year I go out to music festivals and stuff like that. And I, I often I quite often get complimented on my dance moves.

Yamini (01:04:16.446)

Yes, perfect. Yeah. Yeah.

Yamini (01:04:27.766)

I can’t wait to see those. That’s fantastic. I love it.

Simon Waller (01:04:30.395)

 I once actually went to this disco show and this is the best compliment I’ve ever been given my whole life. So it was like this kind of it was Chic, know, the 70s disco band playing with Noah Rodgers and Chic playing at the Sidney Myer Music Bowl in Melbourne. And I had my pink suit on and I’m dancing, having the best time. This lady comes up to me afterwards, this African-American lady, and she had this like bleached

Yamini (01:04:43.69)

Yeah,

Yamini (01:04:50.292)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. post-diamond!

Simon Waller (01:04:59.504)

like shaved head and she goes, you dance like a black guy’s trying to get out of you. And I was like, that is the coolest thing I’ve ever heard in my life. But I didn’t actually, but the other part of this is I want to compliment other people on their dance moves because when I see someone just really in it, you’re like, that’s it. That’s what this is about, right? But that’s the bit I felt self-conscious about is like, you know, like

Yamini (01:05:03.698)

Whoa!

Simon Waller (01:05:29.164)

do they think I’m like trying to pick him up or something like that? You know, like it’s, and so you hesitate, but as you said, it’s just in that moment. But I also know like the flip side of it is like when someone gives you a compliment, you’re like, thanks man. This is great. You know, you just kind of like, yeah, the moves are about to get bigger. Watch this. Yeah.

Yamini (01:05:32.34)

Yeah.

Yamini (01:05:45.974)

Let’s do that. Let’s start lab bombing people. And we’re not expecting anything from them. And they know we’ve got no agenda. We’re never going to see them again. So it’s very clean. It’s a beautiful interaction, but it’s, yeah.

Simon Waller (01:05:54.096)

Yeah

And so you personally like, so you’ve obviously done some of that stuff yourself. And I love the story you shared about as simple as complimenting someone, their shoes and stuff like that.

Yamini (01:06:08.436)

Yeah, I do it all the time, yeah.

Simon Waller (01:06:10.993)

But what, what, what is it, has anything else like having gone through this, you know, the depth of this compass, like this conversation and the research and stuff, it, has it changed anything else for you? Or has it shifted anything for you into your own understanding?

Yamini (01:06:26.102)

I think the key, I think you have to put yourself out there more in the world. know, especially as we sort of, you we become with those who are working from home, working by yourself, all of that we tend to be quite insular. can be quite insular. So I think just go out there and have more experiences, whether it’s learning drumming or talking to strangers or sitting in a bar, going to a movie by yourself, joining a choir, something you’d never think of doing.

Simon Waller (01:06:39.246)

Mmm. Yeah.

Simon Waller (01:06:53.508)

Yeah.

Yamini (01:06:53.832)

I think that really helps you just get out there more with people and bring more positive friction into your life as well. It just opens you up in ways that you can’t imagine.

Simon Waller (01:07:02.778)

Yeah. And we were talking just before we started the recording as well, just about our own work. And there’s a bit of overlap in the sense that we’d both do some keynote speaking and workshops and stuff and kind of, I think we kind of almost said that it’s like, just want to lean more into the workshop and lean more into the longer term stuff, lean more into the space where you are building relationships and connections and the messiness. Like, as I said, you can script 45 minutes on a stage where nobody interrupts you perfectly.

Yamini (01:07:21.994)

Yeah.

Yamini (01:07:29.91)

Perfect.

Simon Waller (01:07:33.37)

Like, yeah, there’s no messiness to it. There’s no unexpected things. People laugh when they’re to laugh. People clap at the end, you know, but like, as soon as you start going longer form, you don’t get to script it anymore. And both of us wanting to like, yeah, I just want to lean into more of that type of work, but also feeling that at the moment, whether it be just economic pressures or whatever, there’s a bit of a pushback on that. And it’s like how, yeah, I think there’s another thing again for that requires more rumination and stuff. It’s like.

Yamini (01:07:39.455)

Yeah.

Yamini (01:07:44.224)

you can’t sustain.

Simon Waller (01:08:02.851)

How do you get people to see that that’s true? How do you actually do more work in that way? And that’s not just a story for us. I think it’s a story for anyone listening. It’s like there is in every job, there’s the messy part of the job. know, the bit that isn’t clean, that isn’t that kind that involves other human beings, some pushback and some negotiated outcomes. And yet somehow that’s probably what the whole world needs more of as well.

Yamini (01:08:13.708)

Yes.

Yamini (01:08:18.166)

and

Yamini (01:08:30.423)

Yeah, and Simon, that work, that deeper mercy work is something you do so well. You’re really good at getting the room to trust you and going where the room needs to go and not being afraid of that. Yeah, yeah.

Simon Waller (01:08:31.862)

Simon that book.

Simon Waller (01:08:43.278)

Well, thank you. didn’t, I wasn’t fishing for a compliment, I will happily take it.

Yamini (01:08:46.451)

No, no, you weren’t. But I’m just saying, it’s not a skill that people can do easily or comes naturally to people. you’ve got to make it rewarding and yet safe for people. You know, it’s got to be rich. You can’t shy away from the tough stuff, but people have to feel psychologically safe so they can contribute and they can grow.

Simon Waller (01:08:56.611)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (01:09:03.106)

And I think, yeah, if I reflect on that just briefly, it’s a lot of it, I think has to come. And I think which kind of brings us back to the conversation is about a space of non-judgment. Like I think you have to, when I go into a room with people, it’s like, I have no idea about their life experience. I do not know what’s going on for them at home. I don’t know whether, you know, what, what their own, like how they’ve been treated in the workplace before.

Yamini (01:09:24.213)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (01:09:33.132)

So you cannot, you cannot impose judgment on people. Like all you can do is provide a space for them. Do you know what that. But I think it feels like that’s somehow important to this whole conversation about friction, especially the human aspect of friction. We push back on the, the behaviors we experience and aren’t willing to take the time to understand what sits behind that. Like the systemic creation of these things.

Yamini (01:09:46.529)

It is.

Yamini (01:09:53.697)

Mm.

Yamini (01:10:00.853)

Yeah.

Simon Waller (01:10:03.109)

And yeah, I think that’s something really interesting about how do we actually provide an act in a way that provide a space that’s non-judgmental, but practice non-judgmental actions and interactions with each other. Yeah. Wow, Yamini. This has been awesome. Hey.

Yamini (01:10:16.215)

Thanks

It’s been great fun. Thank you for challenging me and getting me. It’s just been so fascinating. I’ve loved every minute of it. Yeah.

Simon Waller (01:10:27.945)

Yeah, and please, if you’re in the area, drop in.

Yamini (01:10:31.415)

I will and you drop in too. I must tell you, Simon did the ultimate friction thing. Remember we hosted a pirate, this was during peak lockdown. And Simon said, I’ve got a gift for you. And I go at the end of the episode, on live, he goes, where, how could you have a gift for me? He goes, no, open your drawer. And the image of my room and my drawer come up on the TV screen. I opened my drawer and there’s a bottle of wine. Simon had sent it through managed to go coordinate with my partner and they put it into my drawer and there was a photo of my drawer up on the.

Simon Waller (01:10:38.635)

The pirate TV. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Waller (01:10:50.004)

If it if I

Simon Waller (01:10:54.559)

Yes.

Yamini (01:11:00.969)

It was just so weird and surreal, I’ll never forget that.

Simon Waller (01:11:01.578)

Thank you. Yeah, I think that was a particular time when we all needed like, God, we were all desperate for that feeling, right? Of that sense of connection. And again, yeah, the idea of being able to coordinate that and create surprises, little micro surprises. That was, yeah, that was a very important thing at that time in our lives. But I’m so glad that that’s something that you still remember. That’s beautiful.

Yamini (01:11:12.009)

Yeah. Yeah.

Incredible.

Yamini (01:11:24.118)

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s beautiful. Thank you.

Simon Waller (01:11:29.361)

Right. Well, we are going to have to wrap this unfortunately as much we can, we will talk forever and we will talk again soon. Thank you so much for coming on the Future with Friends. Yamini, it’s been an absolute joy to have you. And for all the people listening out there, we look forward to you join us again in the future. Take care.

Yamini (01:11:31.979)

Thank you so much. It’s been wonderful.

Yamini (01:11:40.375)

Thank you.

Yamini (01:11:45.205)

Thank you. Thanks, Simon. Thanks, everyone.