Simon Waller (00:02)
Hello and welcome to episode 12 of the Future with Friends. Today I’m being joined by a very good friend of mine, Anton. Anton and I only met relatively recently. We met maybe 18 months or so ago, but as soon as he walked into the room of the solo pros, a little community that we are in together, I kind of felt a immediate connection. I felt this is someone who feels like he’s had some similar experience in life.

to me. I don’t know if Anton that is it is what your memory of that moment was. It’s not like our eyes quite like locked across the room or anything like that. But it felt like ⁓ this isn’t I felt a level of affinity as soon as I met you. ⁓ Please back me up on this.

Anton Van Der Walt (00:45)
Yeah. Yes, it was.

But I think it’s much deeper for me in the sense, Simon, yes, thank you very much for having me on your podcast. It’s a real privilege. And I say this ⁓ because I know this is hard work to do and a lot of preparation. So thank you very much for that. ⁓ Yeah, I’ve heard a lot about Simon Waller for many years.

since I arrived in Australia at the end of 2017. Make no mistake. So, you know, the community that I joined at the time, which was the thought leader business school full of, ⁓ you know, and Anton’s and Simon Waller’s, which is incredibly confronting when you arrive there in the first instance. You think you’ve done really well in life until you arrive there and then somebody calls you a newbie again. But anyway, so I heard ⁓

You know a lot about Simon during that time, know, and so good thing Simon. mean so it was It was a different experience for me to meet you because I knew a lot about you, but I know you and so it was ⁓ It was awesome and and and I think also what I liked about meeting you is is that You were just a normal bloke, right? And so, you know a lot of people have said a lot of good things about you but you were just a normal person and

When you and I interacted, were the only person that instantly got me of who I am and where I’ve been. So I relate a lot to what you say.

Simon Waller (02:17)
Yeah, I feel like we’ve had some similar journeys in a way in terms of both have a long kind of, I suppose, pedigree of owning and operating businesses and maybe operating a similar space now. But I’ve always loved how considered you are in your approach. And then a little bit more recently, and I think it was about six months or so ago, was almost like I when I had this epiphany about doing the future with friends.

Anton Van Der Walt (02:26)
Yeah.

Simon Waller (02:43)
And it was literally like an epiphany in the sense that I woke up one morning, I just had the title or the name of this podcast and largely the premise of how it’s going to operate. And I shared it within the community that we’re in, like on a chat that we have. And then you responded almost immediately to say that you had had your own epiphany about your own podcast about the same time. And we followed it up with a conversation. And so ⁓

Over the last few months, six months or so, we’ve almost been on this parallel journey of starting podcasts. Now, your podcast, because you had, again, this really something that for you was also very deeply personal in the nature of it. Do want to share just a little bit about your podcast and the premise behind it?

Anton Van Der Walt (03:19)
is.

Yeah, thank you, Simon. Yes, just a little bit of backstory and the reason why I responded so quickly because the premise of your podcast was so similar to our one and I say our because it’s not just me. I’ve got a mate that is doing that with me. But ⁓ when I saw what you wrote and said, well, this is not

what we want to do in the sense that we’re not interested in doing another podcast that is like the same everything else. So let’s go and do another leadership podcast and we invite leaders to come and speak on our podcasts and hopefully we can build a network and hopefully we can make some money out of it. so, yeah, so that’s one way of doing it. But this was something much deeper because this was something that we really cared about and something that we really wanted to get out to the world in a way that

we enjoy, not in ⁓ another cookie cutter kind of podcast. And I did a lot of research about podcasts and see what works and what doesn’t. But what our story was that ⁓ is that ⁓ this friend of mine, you we talked about our journey in immigration. so he was he also traveled quite a bit prior to coming to Australia and he came to Australia probably more than 20 years ago.

Ben is his name. so he, you know, he played sport rugby and so on. So he went overseas about with that and so on. And then eventually came to Australia with his then fiancee. They got married. And so all his kids were born here. But he said to me, you know, this there’s a there’s a, know, we have this journey and we’d to maybe think about what other people’s journey were. And so we started talking about that and said, well, we need to do a podcast.

And his idea in the beginning was, it’s like, you know, I’d like the name of the podcast to be an Englishman in New York, that kind of idea. ⁓ And there was also that sculpture, think, Victoria, think is his name, the one that makes these sculptures with all these migrants that goes to to different countries and there’s holes in these podcasts, you know, so you’re not always whole. And so it was kind of those ideas that we had. And then we I didn’t.

personally didn’t like the name Englishman in New York because we’re not in New York and we’re not English. But yeah, but you know, now now you’ve got a mate and you will be sensitive to their thoughts and ideas. And but I then I then as luck would have it, I did some further research and I saw somebody had a podcast called An Englishman in New York. He was English and he was living in New York. So that made that made sense.

Simon Waller (05:55)
Look, a couple of small, like a, we could.

A lot more sense.

Anton Van Der Walt (06:18)
So then we went through literally almost three weeks worth of figuring out what the name is. And my dear wife helped us quite a lot because she’s very innovative in that. then we came up with a name called a suitcase, a stranger, a suitcase and a story, because it was so it’s so apt because we come to a different country and you’re a stranger for a very long time.

You feel like a stranger and you try to fit in and then you’ve got your suitcase. But your suitcase is a practical one with what you’ve brought. But it’s more the emotional things, what you’ve brought with you, what you’ve left behind, who have supported you, who have kind of not supported you. And often we leave ⁓ family, siblings, parents, that sort of thing behind. And then, you know, what’s your story? How did you, you know…

go and cope and survive and so on and everybody there, we tell this this name of the podcast, they’re just intrigued and and and. ⁓

Simon Waller (07:22)
Yeah, it’s a great

and I’ve watched a couple of episodes of it and I, I know that as I said, it’s very personal for you. And I go back to that point you made before this need for us to have an intrinsic motivation around the work that we do with podcasting because it is actually takes a huge amount of effort and time. And I definitely agree that having that kind of a non-commercial focus

Anton Van Der Walt (07:29)
Mm.

Mmm. Yeah.

Simon Waller (07:46)
actually allows you to almost breathe a little bit more when you’re doing it and just enjoy it more because you don’t feel it has to deliver something in terms of likes.

or views or somehow lead to work. But I also think just even hearing you, think that as someone who’s on the other side of that, as much as when I first met you in my podcast, I was straight away, I tested you, was like, so Anton, if you were to come on my podcast here, what is it that you talk about? And also knowing deep down, I could probably never be a guest on yours. that being said,

Anton Van Der Walt (08:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Simon Waller (08:22)
what I got from listening to them, like listening to the couple of episodes I’ve listened to, is that there is a huge amount of value in people who aren’t, who haven’t migrated, who aren’t immigrants to listen to it, because you hear about all the things that people have left behind and there’s stories that you don’t necessarily get to see when you meet those people in the workplace. So yes, 100%, I think there’s a really lovely, there’s such a, there’s such a value in capturing that and focusing on that story aspect of things.

Anton Van Der Walt (08:42)
Yeah.

Simon Waller (08:51)
as opposed to just the person that shows up in the workplace alongside you.

Anton Van Der Walt (08:55)
Yeah, and I think the bigger thing, Simon, is that ⁓ people, and I think I am sure you’ll find that because with your podcast called Future with Friends, it’s a very relaxed title. And it says, come and join me. I’m your friend. Tell us your story. And so yours is a little bit different. But what I love about what we do is that when we invite people to tell their story, that’s all they want to do.

They forget about all the, how they put their business together and what was important and all of them, most all of them just talks about their kids and they talk about how they got along here and the things that worried them. And then they talk about how they grew up and all of that sort of stuff. And people love telling a story. And so it became a platform for us to allow people to

to tell us some things very deep about them. We do ask them before the time, know, what you don’t want to talk about and to make sure that we don’t trundle on things that people don’t want to. But they, you know, people get emotional. They talk about deep, deep things. And that’s what I love about the podcast.

Simon Waller (10:06)
Yeah.

And obviously I put zero controls around what we’re gonna talk about. We’re gonna talk about whatever. But it’s probably unsurprising given that kind of introduction and that story and that kind of parallel journey that we’ve been going on. It won’t necessarily be a shock as to what the future that we’re going to be talking about today. You share Anton what you’ve chosen as your topic of exploration for today’s episode.

Anton Van Der Walt (10:15)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so I want to talk about it’s an interesting thing. when you and I, you said to me, you know, I’d love to get you on my podcast. I was quite surprised and very humbled, actually, because I didn’t think that I would ever be a guest on your on your podcast ⁓ simply because who would think about it that way? So six months ago, that was not a thought I have. And now suddenly, when you talked about it and I said to myself, how did I?

You know, what do I want to talk about? Of course, I want to talk about what I’m finding out in this podcast. What does the future look like for immigrants? I said, and I started thinking about that because.

⁓ There’s such a unique thing that happens when you come across to another country and ⁓ it’s not even the expat experience because an expat experience is a time-bound thing. You know you’re always going to go back. You’ve never sold your house where you were. You’re going to come back. But when you make the move, you sold everything that you have because that’s how you do it. You sell everything that you have. You come across. You’ve got to make it work. It’s such a unique experience.

I think it’s underestimated about the value that brings, the type of skill set that it requires. And then I said to myself, what does the future look like ⁓ for us as a human race? know, Simon, I often think about these big things. I never have answers for them, but I always think about the human condition and what it looks like in the future.

And then, of course, you know, there’s so much technology going to happen and we feel it today. And I’m said to myself, what a competitive advantage that we have here on Earth is our human connection, our human ability, our human belonging, the things that we’re going to make more human and less technical. And then I said to myself, well, OK, ⁓ does an immigrant bring something

that we actually undervalue. And then I came to that conclusion that says, but there’s a particular skill set required. ⁓

in order to live in between, in order to be there and be here. And how do you balance these two things? And how do you not lose yourself? And how do you gain a new future? And maybe from a skill point of view is that we’ve got to be far more flexible in our approach going forward. We’ve got to be far more inclusive. We’ve got to be far more…

⁓ in a situation where we want to get people to belong better and feel ⁓ like they are a community. And I said, well, immigrants have got a particular skill set in that regard because they have to do it.

Simon Waller (13:22)
Yeah,

so I’m gonna get you to pause there because

I think it’s actually gonna be really valuable for people to hear your scenario. And that will actually in some way give some context about what you’re talking about in this conversation. But I think there’s one thing that we’ll definitely come back to is how we can see these same kind of patterns play out on different scales at the scale of all of humanity, the scale of immigration, the scale even of what happens within our organization and within our personal friendship groups. So we’re gonna talk about that in a sec. I’m gonna get you to read the scenario. But before we do, just to for the audience, I think the year that we’re

Anton Van Der Walt (13:29)
Mm.

Yeah.

Simon Waller (13:55)
set this in is 2042. Is that correct? Cool. And is there any significance to 2042 for you like 17 years in the future? Was there a reason why you chose that? Or was it just that you felt it was far enough away to imagine something that’s a bit different from today?

Anton Van Der Walt (13:58)
Yep, let’s see here.

Well, Simon, if all things work out and I’m blessed and spared, you know, that’s a year that I was born in the two. So I was born in 1962. So that makes me 80, right? Yeah. So the point was that, so what do I want to look back at on my career to say what difference is there and what things have happened?

Simon Waller (14:26)
Okay, so this will be 80 in this scenario, perfect.

Anton Van Der Walt (14:39)
and that’s what I wanted to look back because that’s sort of the time that you’d figure you won’t be so active anymore. And so I was thinking that that might be a place where I could look back. And so I said, that’s what I picked today.

Simon Waller (14:54)
Perfect. All right. So if you’re ready, what I’m going to do is throw to you and I’m going to read you a scenario from the very top to the very bottom. Over to you, Anton. Tell us about the future of immigration.

Anton Van Der Walt (15:06)
Yeah, thank you, Simon. The title is The Ones Who Went First. Jane Ido was deeply grateful to finally set foot in Australia in late 2024, alongside his wife and their two young kids, a boy of five and a girl of seven. It felt like he could breathe again. The weight had stretched nearly three years, three years of limbo, of hope, laced with doubt.

of holding his family’s future in suspended air, waiting for visa approval. Now, for the first time in a long time, the ground beneath him felt solid. Then for years they were told to integrate and assimilate. So they did, quietly, carefully and without complaint. Jay learned the systems, got the degrees and wrote his resumes with local experience. He celebrated barbecues.

softened accents and raised his kids who barely remembered where it all began. When the future arrived, AI was heralded as the great equalizer. It promised to take bias out of hiring, eliminate inefficiency and match people to jobs, teams and even neighborhoods based on algorithmic harmony. It could track emotional tone, flag belonging gaps and recommend digital mentors tailored to your integration journey.

For governments and companies, it seemed perfect, a way to manage culture without mess. By now, he and his wife had been on this so-called journey, integration, or his integration journey for well over a decade. They’d done the work, built careers, attended parent-teacher interviews, learned how to laugh at the right moments, and still, there was a restlessness he couldn’t name. A quiet feeling.

that despite everything, a part of him was always adjusting, never arriving. He realised slowly and unmistakably that you can’t code for trust and you cannot automate belonging. No system, no matter how intelligent, had ever taught him how to hold himself while crossing into something new. It wasn’t dramatic awakening. It was just a quiet, steady remembering.

a return to something he’d known deep down all along. Jay was not the only one who felt it. Others began to realise the same thing. People like Jay, who had lived between cultures, who knew how to navigate the in-between, were no longer just blending in. They were beginning to stand out. Not because they were louder, but because they were fluent in something machines couldn’t replicate. Emotional resilience,

cultural openness and vulnerability. And slowly the world began to take notice. In boardrooms, in schools, in communities. It was not the most optimised who led, it was the most human. The very people who once tried so hard to shrink themselves, were now the ones being asked to show others the way. Jay works in operations by day, but his real leadership lives elsewhere.

Every second Saturday his backyard fills with people. New migrants, second generation kids and curious neighbours. No scripts, no strategies, just stories, firelight and the permission to be real. The food is almost gone. Just a few charred millies on the braai and a half-finished tray of samosas left on the table. The air is full of laughter, distant music and the sound of children.

darting between garden lights. Plates are being stacked, casual goodbyes said, but a few people linger near the deck, drawn not by obligation, but by something else. Jay steps up, holding two small stones in his hands, one smooth and red, the color of the earth from his grandmother’s stoop in Pietermaritzburg The other, pale and speckled, picked up from Brisbane Beach by his son last summer.

He begins softly, like it’s just a thought he’s sharing. I used to think I had to throw the first one away to hold the second, he says quietly. A hush falls. Even the kids seem to pause. I thought success meant fitting in, softening the edges, saying the right things, going to the footy game, laughing at jokes I did not understand. A few guests chuckled knowingly, heads nod.

But you don’t have to throw it away, he continues. You build with both. I carry this one, he lifts the red stone, because it reminded me who I was. The stories, the kitchen smells, the sounds of my mother’s voice when I knew I was in trouble. A gentle laughter ripples through the group. This one, he lifts the paler one, reminds me of who I’m becoming, what I’m passing to my kids, what I’ve learned to love without having to forget.

He looks around. You think you’re behind. You’re not. You’re ahead. You’ve already done the hardest thing. He pauses. You arrived. You stayed and you adapted. You felt the loneliness and you still showed up. His voice cracks just slightly in the quietest way. You became new without losing yourself. Someone exhales as if they’ve been holding their breath for years.

Another presses a hand to their chest. A younger guest wipes their eye quickly, embarrassed. And in that moment, under fairy lights and fading warmth, surrounded by leftover food, it’s not that something shifts, it’s that something is remembered. A quiet knowing, a glimpse of what is possible, a reminder that belonging is not built in systems, it’s carried and shared by those who lived it. A recognition that the stranger

with a suitcase often carries the blueprint for belonging.

Simon Waller (21:39)
That’s such an incredible story, Anton. And I can hear just in the way that you read it, how deeply personal it is. And I know that you shared with me before this that you’ve had to practice reading this a number of times to not actually tear up while you’re doing it. How was it reading at this time?

Anton Van Der Walt (21:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, was ⁓ the part in the story that really gets me every time is that, is the part where I talk about in that moment under the fairy lights and the fading warmth surrounded by leftover food, you realise something that it’s not something new, it’s actually a remembering. And I think that, you know, you come across as an immigrant, you do your thing, you fight.

You fight your way over, you deliver and all you look forward is ahead and trying to keep everything together. You never think and step back. And this opportunity with future friends have given me that opportunity to say, OK, let’s look a little bit back so that we can look forward. And so that’s what this does to me. It’s a very emotional experience because I’ve experienced it.

Simon Waller (22:56)
Mmm.

Anton Van Der Walt (22:57)
and it continues to go that way because you never, you know, once you’ve changed countries and come to a different place, you will never be, you will always be in between, the beauty of it is you can be both. You don’t have to be either either.

Simon Waller (23:16)
Yeah, I want to come back to this concept of the in between and I want to have a chat with you about that and how it looks at different scales. And this is a particular scale. And I think there’s other scales where I think there’s something to be learned from this. Before we jump into that, though, just in terms of how you went about this. So one thing I pick up sometimes with these scenarios, people just describe a place in the future where this you’ve very much shown the journey of how we get there. Like you started this scenario in 2024, and you take us through it to a point

in 2042 and you kind of show the experience that the Jay has along the way and how there’s this kind of initial point of, you you talk through this concepts of, you know, simulation and integration, and then we kind of somehow arrive at something that feels a lot more meaningful and deeper and more true. But just going to how you went about writing and creating this, what were the signals or what were the things that you picked up?

through the conversations that you’ve been having with others that you felt were so important to include in this.

Anton Van Der Walt (24:19)
Yeah, think that the key was that ⁓ I could not have written this six months ago, Simon, because I only had my experience. so this is the mistake that we often make is we think our experience is the experience and it’s not. Your experience is just your perspective. And so when I was able to start speaking to other people and at length, you we have our conversation with somebody, they

They often bear their soul, right? And so we started picking up this and I started realising that people have similar experiences. And so when I crafted the story, that’s where I started. I started with those similar experiences, the people, the drama that you have waiting for this visa. People don’t understand that sometimes when you put your life on hold for three or four years, you know, getting into Australia is for the most part, incredibly hard.

and difficult and it’s a very hard road that you have to follow. Some people get here easily. Most people take three, four years for a visa to be approved and all that sort of thing. then when you do that, your life is in limbo. So I mean, you’re just sitting there waiting because you don’t buy a new house. You’re thinking about where you should send your kids to school and you may be renting a place and maybe staying with family because you thought you would have been gone already, but now you’re not.

And so that’s where it starts. It starts with that in limbo and then you arrive here and then you’re so happy and then two weeks later you find out, my goodness, it’s just hard because everything looks the same and nothing is. And so then you’re on that journey and almost everyone tells us it takes seven to ten years, seven to ten years to even feel like, okay, you’ve settled a bit.

Simon Waller (25:59)
Mmm.

Anton Van Der Walt (26:15)
That’s the journey that it takes. so then I took that. I said, well, if that’s the case, then what is the journey that you follow? The journey that you follow is the one that says, OK, I’ll assimilate and I’ll integrate and I’ll become one of you and I’ll show you that I can rock up at your footy games and I can understand your jokes. Yeah, yeah.

Simon Waller (26:15)
Mmm.

Yeah, can we talk about the language of this for a second? Because this is something that I picked up on as well,

about these different types of language we use around ⁓ the coming together, right? So one of those languages, a piece of language is the assimilate, which is basically what I understand is, you know, it’s like, pretend that you pretend that you’re one of them, even if you’re not, just act like they act, do what they do.

Anton Van Der Walt (26:46)
Yeah.

Mm.

Simon Waller (27:02)
don’t that the more you can mimic them, it’s almost like that’s what it’s like almost like a mimicry. Whereas integration is more like, try and understand them. You don’t mean but still it’s very much what you must do to fit in. And it feels like I don’t know, somewhere in the second half of this, it feels like there is a different perspective, one whereby it requires a greater mutuality.

Anton Van Der Walt (27:06)
Yeah.

Simon Waller (27:32)
weirdly, I know this is such a small part of the whole scenario, but there was, you talked about, you know, Jay having this barbecue in his backyard and he talks about, you know, there’s new immigrants there and there’s some second generation kids, but there’s also some curious neighbours. And one thing I actually felt for this to be truly successful, because it’s actually a relatively utopian scenario you’ve set, which we’ll talk about some of the alternatives in a sec, but.

Anton Van Der Walt (27:55)
Mm-hmm.

Simon Waller (27:57)
this requires for this to you your utopian scenario to emerge, we would need a lot of curious neighbours, we would need a lot of people who are actually going to go actually hang on, why is it always this one way thing? What can I do? How do I make this space? How do I understand you better, Anton? Or how do I you know, that? Do you don’t like what would that third step look like if it’s assimilation integration? What’s what is the right adjective to describe?

what this more mutual version looks like.

Anton Van Der Walt (28:29)
Well, that’s really interesting point because you say they were having a barbecue at their house and they were not. They were having a braai. And so so the thing is, is that it’s a weird thing, Simon. And so ⁓ you talk to a South African and they they they you tell them you’re having a barbecue. They, know, they get very worked up and upset about that. No, no, no. point I’m trying to make is that as long as

Simon Waller (28:50)
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to upset you so early on in the podcast.

Anton Van Der Walt (28:57)
As long as the people that are here ⁓ do not have the same kind of attitude about immigrants as what immigrants have of people that are here, the thing won’t change. So what I’m trying to say is that ⁓ it’s just natural for people ⁓ that live in a country that do not have a perspective of an immigrant. And so what happens, Simon, is that people come across and they want try to become Australian.

They’re trying to become an act and so on in Australia and it doesn’t work. so it’s this idea that when you come across this is that how can you be both? so to answer your question is that there’s a lot more ⁓ empathy and understanding required from people who live here to say, well, how do I get the best out of these immigrants? Not how these immigrants can become like me.

⁓ Because that’s where the fault line sits, because they never will be able to become like you. ⁓ It’s not possible. And there’s so much strength in diversity in this whole thing that I can use both these talents ⁓ that exist, because I’m just talking from a South African perspective. The way that you get brought up in South Africa, the way that you talk, the way that you speak about things.

⁓ Is so different than when you arrive here that if you continue the way that you speak in South Africa And you speak like this here, and you use the same words and language You won’t survive here at all because people take you know, it’s a confrontational approach for them and So but at the same time once you’ve learned to soften the edges

and to speak ⁓ the way that Australians speak, that they can understand that there’s a value in saying, how do I embrace these immigrant approaches to give me a different perspective of the world and help me in my business and my company for sure?

Simon Waller (31:07)
So yeah, so this is, we’re talking about the different scales, you know, and you mentioned before, the part of your interest in this was actually almost at the scale of humanity. And you’ve kind of brought some of those themes and ideas down to the scale of immigration, like inter-country movements of people.

Anton Van Der Walt (31:10)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Simon Waller (31:28)
And then just there, you touched on a concept around diversity and the power of diversity. And this is something that comes into my work a lot. don’t know. I imagine it might come into yours a bit. And there’s a lot of research that says that diversity leads to better decision-making because it allows us to have access to alternate perspectives and ideas that we may not otherwise have. What that often neglects to mention though,

Anton Van Der Walt (31:49)
Hmm.

Simon Waller (31:55)
is that before you get to the point of improved decision-making, you go through a really rough patch of misunderstanding. When someone, the more diverse that group is, ⁓ the less likely that we immediately have trust with each other and understanding with each other. And if we don’t overcome those short-term challenges, then we don’t get to the other side of improved decision-making. And I feel like that’s a really important

point. Because if we think about that overcoming the overcoming of mistrust and misunderstanding, there has to be a mutuality like that’s the whole group that does that. It’s not as he said, it’s not a simulation where it’s like, cool, just pretend you’re like me that doesn’t overcome that mistrust and misunderstanding. And so I kind of think that that was really stood out to me in this in some ways.

Anton Van Der Walt (32:35)
Hmm.

Simon Waller (32:49)
what you’re talking about exists at the microcosm in so many organisations even potentially in friendship groups. And perhaps it’s actually in my own friendship groups that I see some of this as well. So when I moved from here, I moved to Melbourne from Perth, ⁓ I ⁓ was kindly introduced to a friendship group through a mutual friend. And it was really interesting when you meet that new friendship group, no one says, hey, best thing that you do, best thing you can do is assimilate into them.

Anton Van Der Walt (33:17)
Hmm.

Simon Waller (33:18)
Like that’s a really weird thing to say with a group of new friends. Or even, look, I think you need to really focus on how you’re to integrate yourself. Like, again, the language isn’t right. It’s just a process of introduction. I’m just going to introduce you to some people. So yeah, I think that stood out to me a lot in this. And perhaps what’s your experience of this? Perhaps not so much in the immigrant journey, but what about in your business journey? Is there parallels that you see for this?

Anton Van Der Walt (33:21)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah, think the thing is that my premise is that I think that ⁓ the power of diversity is underestimated. And it’s really difficult for a group of similar people to have a big discussion about diversity because they’re not diverse in the first place. And so it’s very difficult. And so when you introduce diverse thoughts into a group, you have to be open as a group to ⁓ take on board those

diverse thoughts, ⁓ because ⁓ otherwise, you know, there’s just not enough people in ⁓ a group like that that that’ll make the difference. So if you have, ⁓ know, if you have I don’t know where where I had this discussion, I had the discussion a while back about diversity and about how people get into a group. But it’s like, you know, if you have a board of directors and the nine and the nine nine people on the board of directors and one of them is a woman.

then what generally happens is that ⁓ her voice that she has on the board is just an opinion. And not because nobody want to take her seriously, but because she’s on her own. And when there three women in a board of that nine, then their voice becomes something much more that is taken seriously and then actually gets something done.

So it’s like this, when you come as an immigrant here, you have a voice, but then your voice gets drowned sometimes and you just kind of give up eventually to say, you know, I’ll just go back to my own kind. Whereas and so it’s almost like ⁓ in companies, when we talk about diversity, when we talk about how do we embrace different views of thoughts.

You have to have different views of thoughts in order to embrace different views of thoughts. You can’t be a homogenous group and think you’re going to embrace different views of thoughts. People are just not smart enough for that. I don’t know if that makes sense.

Simon Waller (35:41)
Hmm.

Yeah, no, I think

and what I also heard in that is that even within a diverse group, you can still have power dynamics if there is a dominant group within that group. ⁓ And that did something come from me this as well, like, in some ways, ⁓ your own personal experience is one of you know, it’s almost diversity light, right? In the sense that you’re still a middle aged white guy. In coming to a country where that’s generally relatively acceptable.

Anton Van Der Walt (35:55)
Mmm. Yeah, yeah.

Yes.

Simon Waller (36:19)
I think I shared a little bit of a story about a friend of mine, Yanni, who I played basketball with, who came here from South Sudan via a refugee camp in Egypt. ⁓ you know, that for someone like him and for his wife, particularly that level of challenge around ⁓ belonging was really pronounced. And so I think on one hand,

You know, as I said, this feels like a slightly, there’s a slightly, there is a, there is a number of stories and a number of possible futures, which feel far more challenging than this. Like I think in this scenario as well, I was surprised, or maybe not surprised. I mean, you make your own choices around, you know, what is the, part of the future that we want to explore. But we are also seeing this kind of rise in nationalism around the world at the moment.

which is leading to ⁓ a growing suspicion of immigrants. And in fact, you know, in places like the US, we’re seeing immigrants has been almost like a politically ⁓ designated out group that we can point to for the causes and the troubles in our country. And as I said, if I was to take that lens or that kind of that trend and apply that to your scenario,

Anton Van Der Walt (37:35)
Hmm.

Simon Waller (37:47)
It feels like things could be significantly harder for Jay and other immigrants coming in.

Anton Van Der Walt (37:54)
I think so. it’s it’s born out by what people were telling us. So we had an interview or a podcast with a person that came from India and the difficulty in the drama that he had, which was more pronounced than than some of the white people that we interviewed on the podcast. And it’s.

You know, people don’t go out of their way to try and be racialistic about this thing. It’s just how it is. And so so his fight is a lot harder. His fight was a lot harder to get to get accommodation, to get his kids into the school and all that sort of stuff. ⁓ And and then then it was with some of the other people that that we interviewed. And so you are right. I think that there’s a there’s certainly a nationalism. ⁓

going on all over the world and particularly in countries that were popular to immigrate to. There’s all this thing about legal and illegal immigration and so on that all mixed up in the same thing. But the weird thing, Simon, as you probably know from a human condition point of view, some of the people who scream as loud as other ones that are with the immigrants, right?

They immigrated themselves and now they’re saying, no, no, no, that’s not, you know, we can’t have more. And so that’s what sometimes happens is that that is that scenario. The other thing that that that I didn’t even think about, but we interviewed a Chinese South African. Right. So he he grew up in China. Not he grew up in China, he grew up in South Africa. And so I asked him a bit about his family and where they come from and then ancestral home and so on. And so.

And he said there were not many Chinese in South Africa. He mentioned a number of 20,000. And I was kind of weird because I grew up eating Chinese food, you know, Chinese takeaways. So I wondered where they were. But he says 20,000. And he said.

Simon Waller (39:49)
Well, not you got didn’t

get probably that the Chinese food you got the the yeah, right the adapted version of Chinese food. The assimilated Chinese food.

Anton Van Der Walt (39:53)
yeah. Yeah, probably. the interesting

thing that he was saying is that when he arrived in Sydney, he felt he was home simply because ⁓ of the diverse population that is in Sydney and so many Chinese.

One underestimates that sometimes. We may be sidetracked a little bit about the story, but I think the point here is that, ⁓ yes, there’s a growing nationalism.

But at the same time, immigration is not equal. So for people who are in certain race group, it’s easier. It definitely is easier because I walk in a networking meeting. look the same as most people in the networking meeting. That’s true. I’ve got gray hair. But when I open my mouth and I say, ah, you’re not from here, right? No. I think you’re a New Zealander or South African, right? Yes.

And then that’s how the conversation starts. Now you can imagine that ⁓ and it’s like people don’t mean anything by that. But that’s how the conversation starts. You are not from here. Are you from South Africa? And that’s how the conversation starts. So you immediately, you know, you’re kind of, so what are they thinking? Right. It’s a it’s an interesting thing.

Simon Waller (41:19)
Mmm.

The other thing which I think just in this dynamic, which, you know, where I kind of read this and this idea of how we socialise. And again, knowing from talking to my friend Yanni about his own experience, there’s quite a strong South Sudanese community ⁓ in Victoria. And a lot of people who are Australian kind of look at that community and go like, you guys are really just keeping to yourselves, aren’t you?

Anton Van Der Walt (41:50)
Hmm.

Simon Waller (41:51)
But in some ways, that’s actually a natural reaction to the fact that they’re not finding broad acceptance elsewhere. And they, you know, when you come here, I don’t think necessarily people understand how limited the resource and the support and the help is. And so I don’t know if the same in terms of your own experience, but for Yanni, he was saying like, when they came, there was, know, the South Sudanese community actually pulls resources together to support new families coming in.

Anton Van Der Walt (42:07)
Hmm.

Simon Waller (42:21)
Here’s some blankets, here’s some sheets, here’s some crockery, here’s some things, here’s some stuff to help you get started. And then once you’re here, your job is to help make it easier for the next person as well. And in some ways that’s, as I said, that has only happened or a re one of the reasons why that has happened is because there isn’t the level of support required or the level of belonging that comes there isn’t necessarily a whole bunch of, I say the word Australians, but I kind of feel like that’s not really even

Anton Van Der Walt (42:26)
Yes.

Yes.

Simon Waller (42:51)
There’s such a diversity of people that exist here and have citizenship here. But there isn’t that level of support from elsewhere, either emotional or economic or, you know, to actually make up for that. And I do think that in this scenario, there’s a light version of that that plays out. But I do actually feel that especially in that nationalistic version of this, you could actually have some very, very ⁓ harsh, like

differences between those groups.

Anton Van Der Walt (43:24)
Yes, yes, there is. so I can just, you know, from our perspective as well. So when I spoke to the the Indian to the Indian person, there’s very, very strong Indian communities ⁓ and and that are helping each other, because if they don’t do that, nobody’s going to do that. Right. And so that’s that’s the thing that happens.

But I think that that’s so you can take it as a so what happens with some people, ⁓ Simon, is that they only mix there, they only assimilate there or they only kind of integrate in their own community.

If a South African perspective, course, sporting in South Africa is as big as in Australia, it’s just different sports. the big thing in South Africa where they’re very successful, of course, is rugby and it’s not a big sport in Australia. so you know, what would I do? I’m a big supporter of rugby, so I would certainly support the Springboks, which is the national team when they play anybody else. ⁓

and also when they play Australia. But when Australia plays, other than…

play against South Africa, I would put my Australian Wallaby shirt on. so and that’s the kind of things that you do so that you can find this balance. Because if you only go to the one side, so you only belong to the Indian community, you only belong to the Sudanese community, you only belong to the South African communities and are you going to bry and be with them on Fridays and whatever else? Because socialising in South Africa, for instance, I can’t speak for Indian and Sudanese

in these cultures but socialising in South Africa is very very different than socialising in Australia. It’s very different.

Socialising in South Africa always has been you get together in people’s backyards. It’s like I described it, right? That’s what you do. In Australia, there’s other things like the bolo clubs, the places that you go to to socialise on pubs and bolo clubs and stuff like that. It’s not necessarily in people’s backyards. So it’s very different. And so you’ve got to learn how to do these both these things. Otherwise, you will be very unsuccessful. The point being what I’m making.

is that if we want to be successful as a nation, we’ve to understand there are two sides to things. It’s not just the one side that actually works. There are other things, because as much as the immigrant has to learn how to get ahead in a country like this, there’s a lot of learnings that the country or the people in the country can get from them. That’s the point I’m making.

Simon Waller (46:04)
Yeah, and I think that’s the framing of this has got to be seen through the lens of opportunity. Like if it’s seen as being a punishment, like what you have to learn how to you have to have to learn about South Africans and South African culture, like it’s like, well, why would I have to do that? But if like, if we can tap into what the opportunity is. Now I want to there’s a couple of really great things. And this is some of my favorite parts of this scenario, which ⁓

Anton Van Der Walt (46:09)
Hmm.

Simon Waller (46:30)
I want to frame up using this reference to the technology piece. And I think rightly so the technology part of this is not a big part of this. Cause very quickly you kind of go, yeah, we, kind of tried these AI type solutions to guide and make this easier and give you hints and tips about how you can assimilate or integrate, but a frustration or a failing in that space.

Anton Van Der Walt (46:35)
Yes.

Hmm.

Simon Waller (47:01)
Can we just talk very briefly about that? Because as I said, I don’t wanna linger on it just because I actually think what it does though is actually point out what’s actually more important. But can you just talk about why you’d like you put this in there and ⁓ what is it that you feel that this course would be a failure?

Anton Van Der Walt (47:10)
Yeah, but…

Yeah, so you’d ask yourself, why is the technology a part of that conversation? Because if you left it out, you wouldn’t have missed it, right? So, ⁓ but why did I put it in? I think why I put it in is that ⁓ the more there’s a lot of conversations going on about, so you get the let’s talk about the technology kind of geeks and people that write about that and.

That’s how they see the future and rightly so because there’s so much development in there. We’re to make our lives easier and so on. And then there’s the humanists like yourself that will obviously write about, know, what’s the you know, how’s the human going to survive in all of this and what they’re going to do. And then we’re trying to tell people, well, there’s certain things that AI can’t do.

You know, you know, it can’t it can’t do vulnerability or can’t do emotional resilience or you can’t do, you know, those human things that are going to be the future of how are we going to survive. The point, the reason why I put this in Simon is to is to show the point is that it’s these immigrants that have to ⁓ display these kind of skills and behaviours, the ones that we are trying to tell people we’re going to need in the future. That’s why I’m put it in.

I don’t know if it makes sense.

Simon Waller (48:42)
So

what I read in this, is probably, think, is another layer on top of what you’re talking about, is if we actually look back and go, what is the point of these AI type tools? Like, why are we being, what are we actually being promised? And we’ve been promised ⁓ productivity, ultimately, that we can get you from point A to point B faster and cheaper than you could otherwise.

Anton Van Der Walt (49:03)
Yeah.

Simon Waller (49:08)
In this case, we’re saying we can get you to the point of integration faster and cheaper because you use this tool.

And the truth of it is, is there’s some things that there is potentially no shortcut for. And I think that that’s what I saw in this is the stuff that we’re really talking about, there isn’t a shortcut for. That if we want to talk about really a sense of belonging and how we create belonging, how we overcome the challenges of diversity in teams or in this case in society.

Anton Van Der Walt (49:30)
No.

Simon Waller (49:42)
A lot of this comes down to spending time together to create shared understanding and identifying common ground. But that’s the only real way around it. It’s me actually hearing and taking time to hear your story. You’re taking your time to hear mine. Us realising within that space that there’s certain levels of commonality in terms of our values and our beliefs. And from that common ground, we can then build out

and have that, I suppose, mutual respect that allows us to basically find power in the difference. And so that’s what I saw in it is like, we’re looking for a shortcut to the wrong thing here. That the real thing is the only real solution to this is some time and some effort. we can, that’s not to say that we can’t, we can put in time and effort.

Anton Van Der Walt (50:28)
Hmm. Hmm.

Simon Waller (50:38)
and not get to a good outcome if that time is poorly structured and the environment or the systems we do that in aren’t conducive to finding common ground, if they’re conducive to conflict creation. But at the same time, I don’t think you can actually shortcut the belonging piece.

Anton Van Der Walt (50:53)
Yeah, you’re right. That’s a very good point and that’s a much deeper point ⁓ that you’re making, Simon, and I 100 % agree with that because I think I said that earlier also is that, you know, it’ll take you seven to 10 years to settle.

And there’s no, you’re not going to do that in two years. You’re not going to do it in a year because it takes a long time. You can’t just uproot yourself after 30 years in one place and come here and think it’s going to be OK in a year and it’s not. It takes you a long time. You bump your head, you learn new things and it’s almost like. And you are right, if you take that.

analysis of saying or analogy of saying it takes you such a long time to settle in here. Why would it take you a shorter time to build diversity and belonging and everything else? Because it’s the same kind of human condition, right? It’s like we don’t trust each other. We don’t know enough about each other. We don’t know what we can bring to the table. We make mistakes and then we fix them over time. And so

Simon Waller (51:45)
Hmm.

Anton Van Der Walt (51:59)
Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t, but it’s a trial and error thing. There’s no blueprint here.

Simon Waller (52:07)
Yeah. So wonder like we talk about that through like a from a practical perspective. Like I think if you talk about, for instance, the concept of say, rugby is like, cool, there are rugby clubs ⁓ in Australia. And if you go to those clubs, most of people there would in the international arena would be supporting the Wallabies. And in international arena, you’re saying, look, to be honest, I’m still supporting the spring box. But at the club level, you can actually find a sense of common ground.

Anton Van Der Walt (52:15)
Hmm.

is.

Yes.

Simon Waller (52:38)
that supersedes both at the club level, you can do that. I definitely when you’re told that story, it another very good friend of mine, Joe, who’s English, and obviously been English, then the main sport is football, let’s talk about the international name. ⁓ And that’s one thing he has done religiously in the 20 years or so he’s been in Australia, he’s been involved in local sports clubs, local football clubs, whether it be as a player, whether it be as a coach,

whether it like and within that space he has found and helped establish that common ground. Now, I think small sport is one avenue of that it can’t be the only one but if you could find a whole bunch of little slivers ⁓ whether it be around, you know, sport, I food, this is the other one that came up for me in this is the power of food in terms of creating a space. I’ve always deeply believed in in the value of food.

Anton Van Der Walt (53:27)
Mm. Mm.

Simon Waller (53:34)
in as a way of bringing people together, you know, the breaking of bread. And I know you did point out, ⁓ you know, that I caught it a barbecue instead of a braai.

maybe, maybe calling either one becomes problematic. Do you mean like an either one, you’re either either you’re coming to my thing or I’m coming to your thing. What’s the mutual thing that allows us to where we’re going to have a ⁓ potluck dinner, just bring something, you know, and so we take away the pressure of it being one thing or the other thing. I don’t know if you’ve got thoughts on that.

Anton Van Der Walt (53:57)
Mm. Mm. Mm.

I do. ⁓ think that ⁓ I haven’t given the food that much thought as what you’re expressing here, but I’m thinking about that. it’s true, because that’s place where we socialise and get together. And what I’m saying is the difficulty in Australia has always been that it’s not a natural thing.

At least in my experience, to socialise in the way that South Africans does. That’s why they do it in the backyard and Australians does it elsewhere. So you’ve got to find a way to do it in both scenarios and for it to work. but

get, Australians are really big on socialising. So you’ve got to use that opportunity to say, OK, how can I do things a little bit differently? And it’s not just my way that will call the day, know, or have the day. So but the other thing that you mentioned, the sporting things, every, almost every guest that I’ve got young children say that exactly that the thing that they do.

is they go to these kids sporting events, they become coaches, they work on Fridays at the tables or whatever it is that they do, and they have found that if there’s one way for them to integrate a lot better in Australia, then it’s through that basis, whether it is surfing on Saturdays or send their kids onto Nippers and all that sort of stuff. So that’s what they do because South Africans…

are very sporty people and outdoor people. That’s where they find a link that works really, really well. so maybe the food is still more a challenge, but the sporting thing, ⁓ they’ve cracked that. ⁓ And so they become those coaches.

Simon Waller (56:00)
Yeah, I might add to that

as well. Like, so some of the work I do is I sit on the board of a library corporation that runs 20 libraries in Melbourne’s outer east and that kind of runs down to the Basque coast and Phillip Island and all the way up into places like Pakenham where there’s quite a large immigrant community. One thing I’ve always kind of believed is that in some ways, you know, the library is the sporting club for people who ⁓

Anton Van Der Walt (56:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Simon Waller (56:29)
who aren’t necessarily sporty. You know, it’s still a shared community space that we own collectively. ⁓ It’s just there for different types of pursuits. They’re not sporting pursuits, there might be intellectual pursuits or cognitive pursuits, or increasingly, there’s social pursuits that happen through libraries. So I do think we’ve just identified, yes, there’s sports, but there’s those types of things. But it’s almost having a sense of intentionality around that, and using those as an avenue to kind of

Anton Van Der Walt (56:40)
Yes.

Hmm.

Simon Waller (56:58)
find common ground with people. think that’s really powerful. ⁓ One other thing before we start wrapping up, there was a couple of things you mentioned in here about the strengths that people who are immigrants potentially bring. And you mentioned things like this emotional resilience and cultural openness and a vulnerability, ⁓ which kind of almost extend beyond the premise of just the diversity, the value of the diversity in and of itself.

Anton Van Der Walt (57:01)
Yeah, it is.

you

Simon Waller (57:28)
And remind me of this, you know, how often, know, like, moms who are reentering the workforce, and now reframing what it is that they did in those years when they were looking after their kids. And one thing that I, which I think is one really valuable to acknowledge that we can actually grow as human beings through a multitude of different experiences. And I would argue that potentially, ⁓

Anton Van Der Walt (57:43)
Yes.

Simon Waller (57:58)
there’s a there’s something that is super powerful as a strength and it’s nothing I’d picked up before. There’s a there is a tenacity required to immigrate. There is a commitment required. You know, this stuff that you mentioned before about being in limbo for a number of years before you even find out where you get to go and then being willing to pack up your life, your family to move somewhere like that actually that sense of like that sense of persistence is is something that

Anton Van Der Walt (58:20)
Hmm.

Simon Waller (58:28)
you would hope that a lot of organisations would look at and go, actually, you know, we could do with some of that around here. If we can translate that is into a project management skill or whatever, it feels like there’s a lot of value to be added.

Anton Van Der Walt (58:42)
Yes, that’s exactly right. So somewhere along the line in my scenario, I write that schools and communities and organisations actually see that and realise that. And that’s my dream, right? that those things, because we have…

⁓ There are so many immigrants that I get across that are so, so successful. They become incredibly successful. And you’re right. It’s one of those things. It’s getting up in the morning and say it’ll be OK today. know, yesterday was hard, but it’ll be OK today. go one foot in front of the other is our good friend Jane Anderson would say, right? Just put one foot in front of the other today. And so you you go.

It’s that tenacity, you say, that ability that in South Africa, they talk a lot about the can do attitude. It’s that thing that you go and do that makes it successful. And I think that.

That’s my dream. so it’s a good probably, you know, coming towards the end of this conversation. ⁓ You know, you asked me, so what’s the year that I’m looking at? So I’m looking back and say, you know, maybe by that time I’ve interviewed hundreds of immigrants. This thing is taken on such a ⁓ big thing. It’s become the South African diaspora around the world. Right. Or it’s gone to the point where we’ve heard so many stories, where we can impart so many things and maybe

we’ll start getting people on our podcast that have worked with South Africans that I can talk to them about or work with immigrants and say this is what they got out of them. And so that kind of what I would be looking for to say, well, what does the future look like? Is it just going to be hard or is it just going to be a situation where we can actually ⁓ leverage these skills, this tenacity, this ability, this can do attitude and say, how can we make our communities, our organisations?

Are humans better?

Simon Waller (1:00:41)
Yeah, I think as you go through that process, I know that it’s a lot of your early guests have been South Africans, but I you mentioned already, there’s people there, like someone, English people. And I think when you can gather that research and that information across ⁓ a diversity of different experiences, and find the commonality around what really works, like what really ⁓ is that at the crux?

Anton Van Der Walt (1:01:01)
Hmm.

Simon Waller (1:01:10)
of creating that sense of belonging. What were the actions that people took? What was the mindset that they had? And then as you said, on the flip side of that, on the other side of that, what was the benefits that they suddenly, what was those kind of superpowers that they potentially brought to not just even the work or their employer, but to their friendship groups and to the community that they belong in? I think that’s such rich and powerful information.

Anton Van Der Walt (1:01:12)
Yeah.

Yes.

Simon Waller (1:01:37)
that has the potential to really elevate the conversation around immigration. So I really, I’m so glad that we’ve had you here. I’m so glad that you’re doing what you’re ⁓ Given what you’ve done so far. ⁓

Anton Van Der Walt (1:01:41)
Yes, yes.

Yeah.

Simon Waller (1:01:51)
as I said, this was a slightly utopian perspective. I do see a number of scenarios in the future where, you know, through, you know, not just nationalism, but, you know, we also have issues around kind of potentially, you know, climate driven immigration, where suddenly this happens much faster, which puts great strain on a whole bunch of other scenarios.

Anton Van Der Walt (1:02:10)
Mm.

Simon Waller (1:02:13)
With this one, you know, if we wanted to move people slightly towards this, this vision that you have for the future, is there anything that you would encourage listeners to do personally in the short term that would help that?

Anton Van Der Walt (1:02:25)
Yes, ⁓ and maybe the simple answer is that think about, because you get to do with immigrants, most often, most Australians get to do with immigrants.

in some other way. There’s so many of them. And so the question is, not what they can do. You know, how can they become more like you? I think maybe spend a little bit of time and effort finding out their world, their story. How did they come here? What are their challenges? It’s a simple conversation. That’s what I would encourage.

Simon Waller (1:02:59)
Yeah, just have a conversation. I think that’s right. know, you said as soon as you make the time and the space for that, and there’s probably no shortcut around that. Once you do that, as in my own personal experience ⁓ has been that you do find greater commonality. I think we’re obviously wired as human beings to gravitate towards people who are like us. It’s almost like that’s the easy bit. ⁓ But there’s so much value in the challenge.

Anton Van Der Walt (1:03:06)
Mm.

Yes.

Simon Waller (1:03:28)
And finally, in terms of this yourself, I know, as you you spent a lot of time thinking about this space, and it’s become such a passion for you over the last few months in terms of the podcast, etc. I suppose what I’ve what I asked guests to do is extrapolate some of their thinking further into the future than they might otherwise do, to escape from probably the limitations of the present and imagine what alternatives look like.

In terms of your own journey through this and your own learning through this, has something come up for you? you had any kind of aha moments that perhaps struck you?

Anton Van Der Walt (1:04:06)
Well, you know, it sounds weird, but the aha moment was the fact that you asked me to come here on this podcast. That was the aha moment for me, because I was doing the podcast and it was almost like a year and now, right? What’s your story? know, how can you help other people that want to come? I never thought about what it looked like in 20 years and what contribution we can make.

And then I started thinking about it. So that’s my aha moment was that. And then when I wrote the scenario, it ⁓ just became more more apparent of how we can do that. So the aha moment was the fact that ⁓ it’s not just a year and now thing. There’s actually a future that says there can be so much more value in it. If the ⁓

As you say, this scenario can work out in that way. mean, there are different options, but this is the one that I picked. And I thought that that’s a great one because, you know, that’s how we how we get better along in our lives and as human beings. And I think that immigrants bring a particular skill. that was the aha moment for me to say they actually can bring a particular skill. And this is what it is.

Simon Waller (1:05:09)
Hmm.

Hmm.

If a meal is, you know, like one of the powerful parts of futurism is, is one been able to envision a future like this that we actually find desirable. But then this idea of back casting, which you’ve kind of largely done a chunk of this in your scenario is going like, well, for this to a, for this to emerge, what would be the precursors to this happening? And I think some of the stuff that we’ve kind of touched on in this conversation around creating the space for conversations to happen between diverse people.

Anton Van Der Walt (1:05:35)
Hmm.

Simon Waller (1:05:55)
in a way that is non, like one, there is the time and the space, but there is not through confrontation. It’s like that seeking of common ground and whether it’s either the sports clubs or whether it be through things like the food and the barbecues, the curious neighbours. I think there’s some really tantalizing elements of what should be done and what we could orchestrate in the present to allow something like this to emerge.

Anton Van Der Walt (1:06:20)
I agree.

Simon Waller (1:06:22)
Anton, thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s such a such a joy going through this with you and partly, ⁓ as I said, I’ve always had such great respect for you as a human being. But to hear you share something so personal has been a real privilege. ⁓ So thank you again for being on the show. It’s been a pleasure having you as a guest.

Anton Van Der Walt (1:06:43)
Yeah, thank you. It’s been an honor for me, Simon, and really enjoyable. There’s nothing like finding things that you enjoy doing and then somebody asks you to come and tell us about that. And I really enjoyed that. So I really appreciate that, Simon.

Simon Waller (1:06:57)
Awesome. Well, that’s the end of this episode. We’ll be back in a couple of weeks for the next one. Until then, ⁓ good luck.